PoS - How does it really work? Long and maybe confusing thread incoming ;)


#21

thanks. then PoS is always working for sitting PPCs without the need to move them around once in a while.
and you have no control over the PoS amount. (i mean to put all the PPC to PoS via commands)
please confirm :slight_smile:


#22

Right now, if you have a locked wallet, you need to update your ppcoin.conf file to enable Proof-of-Stake minting. I know it’s on the roadmap to have this feature built into Peercoin-Qt, but right now, it’s a manual process.

Once it’s enabled though, the app will take care of Proof-of-Stake minting without you having to do anything else.


#23

Will all peercoins have a coinage or is it something you choose to do? To commit your coins to be minted and gain a bonus 1 PPC after 90 days for example like some kind of short term bond? And this powers the mining instead of PoW?


#24

Yes, all coins accrue a coin-age value based on how long they’ve sat in a wallet without being moved. You do not have to do anything to have that happen.

However, in order for your coins to be used “as Proof-of-stake” towards minting new coins your wallet has to be online, and unlocked for minting purposes after your coins are 30+ days or older to allow the minter process to begin.

If you have 3 coins, and they are 90 days old, you would have 270 coin-age days as stake.

However, if you had 30 coins, and they were only 30 days old, they would have 900 coin-age days as stake

I know it sounds a little complicated. Some more information is forthcoming, videos, etc. A new wallet client, and more.

Basically you should buy as much Peercoin as you can and hold on to them. As those coins exceed past 30 days, you will be able to get new coins minted just by holding them, running the wallet and letting the minter part of it do the work for you.

The rate works out to about 1% annually I am told. But those new coins you mint, can be used towards minting more new coins later. So it is compounded over time.

If I’m wrong, I hope someone corrects me. This is how I understand it so far.


#25

Thanks, you cleared up a lot of questions I had.

Do you know if PoW will eventually be discontinued when the supply of peercoins is significant enough? Or when it becomes unprofitable to mine coins due to energy costs is it expected people will stop PoW?


#26

I wouldn’t say it would be “discontinued”, but as time goes on it will be less profitable, and less necessary for the network to survive.

Proof-of-stake will yield more new coins AND be used for transaction confirmations more and more as time goes on. This does not require complex calculations or hard work.

So people who invest in Peercoin and keep a balance, will automatically profit in the future from minting, without the need to run a miner.

The network just needs lots of proof-of-stake minters, which could be also called “people holding coins in their online wallet” in order to secure the network.

Miners right now make approx 167 coins each block they find today. Minters are making coins depending on how many coins they have in their wallet balance and how often they successfully mint a block.

Eventually Minters will make a lot more coins than miners. :slight_smile:

…and when that happens, we can all save on our hydro bills.


#27

i am starting to get a few question about how many coins people can expect to mint by proof-of-stake minting on my video on how to mint on youtube:

this is the answer i have posted to one such question, based on my limited understanding and having read some of the threads on this forum, including this one:

[i]this is a difficult subject, for sure, and i think more explanation from the creators/developers would be helpful.. see the thread here: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=809.15

from what i understand, you need to hold coins for a minimum of 30 days to be able to mint more coins from them. the longer you hold them, the more chance you have of minting new coins. however this probability is not increased once you reach 90 days. the advantage of having your wallet always on, is that you may mint the coins earlier. you will then be able to mint based on those newly generated coins as well - and sooner. however, this is still random and having it on all the time does not guarantee that you will generate coins any quicker, it just gives you a better chance. also, the minting return is roughly 1% per annum, so a compound minting effect (minting minted coins, if that makes sense), for small amounts of coins is probably minimal.

hope i haven’t made this even more complicated. truth is, i am not sure of the answer. but i will be minting my coins every 30 days and just overnight for one night. i don’t have very many coins, so this will do for me…

good luck and let me know how it goes…[/i]

if anyone has anything to add or to correct, please do so, because as you can see, i am linking to this thread from the video… thanks very much, especially to ben and ppcman who have helped me get things a little clearer (if not correct), in my head…


#28

Here is an example:

Say you have 100 coins.

You have to hold them still (no transactions in or out from that address), after approximately 90 days you will have minted about 0.25 in new Peercoins.

If you keep minting your coins like this, after about 1 year, you will have about 1 full Peercoin newly minted, (101 coins total).

There is some randomness involved so that is why we can’t say the exact day or hour that your coins will be minted because your coins are competing against other people’s coin ages and that is random.

So basically,

1 = 1% of 100

90 days = .25 of a year

So if you have 100 coins and you hold them for 90 days you will get 1/4 of 1%, which is .25 coins.
If you had 100 coins and you hold them for just 60 days, you would get about .16 or .17 coins.

There is some variation based on the coin age and the exact moment your coins end up minting, but if you are consistent about it, it comes to ~1% per year, (give or take a few days due to the randomness).


#29

@Alertness
thanks very much for that, it is very helpful. i was wondering if you might also be able to comment on the amount of time you should spend minting… for example i do not want my wallet on all the time - would i be at a significant advantage in only running it once (overnight) every 30 days? thanks again…


#30

In newer upcoming versions there is some talk about new features called:

“cold-locked transactions and coin control”

So anything done today can be enhanced, and improved later. 0.4 is due out in the first weeks of December. Your video(s) might have better info then?


#31

I just put my client online for a matter of hours once every couple of weeks or so, and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on too many POS blocks.


#32

[quote=“ppcman, post:11, topic:648”][size=14pt]I found this image on the web of proof of stake earned in a ppcoin-qt wallet.[/size]

The receiving wallet address of this screenshot was PNywpYi6qMMQLTmE9f4bbM7diatb5Wvt8a

If he successfully minted 5.72 coins on 6/15/2013, and his coins were a minimum of 30 days old, he had around 14,000 coins in his wallet at the time of the successful mint.

I might completely wrong (oops?) … but this is what I have figured out in the last 3 minutes.

[size=10pt]It looks like he started successfully minting coins EVERY DAY! Sometimes he minted multiple coins in the same day! [/size][/quote]

Here is the wallet from the PIC:
http://ppc.cryptocoinexplorer.com/address/PNywpYi6qMMQLTmE9f4bbM7diatb5Wvt8a so looks like he had about 15,000 PPC. The actual Mint transaction would be the stake plus 5.72.


#33

So if the max coin age is 90 days per coin and the chance of mintning is related to the amount of coins you hold, how many coins do you realistically need to have a reasonable chance of generating PoS blocks? Will this work even if you have only a few coins?

And another question I have is hoe does it work if your coins have different age? Like If I bought 100 coins yesterday and another 100 today, do their coin ages just accumulate together, or do they count as separate balances as far as minting is concerned? And would it be wise to merge them by sending them to another wallet in one transaction or does it make no difference?


#34

Any transaction can find coins, I have seen a small coin transaction find 0.01PPC.

The coins for minting purposes find PoS per transaction. You don’t necessarily need to have another wallet, you can send them all to one of the addresses in your existing wallet. The advantage of having one transaction is that once you find a PoS you can take your wallet offline for 30 days and then try again; otherwise you would have to run it more often to find PoS for all transactions.


#35

Ok so it is possible at least, but I guess not very likely. So how many do you need to have a good probability of finding a block within the 30-90 days of ageing? After they aged 90 days you can probably wait forever and eventually find a block, but I guess all the waiting time is lost in terms of minting additional coins…?


#36

Ok so it is possible at least, but I guess not very likely. So how many do you need to have a good probability of finding a block within the 30-90 days of ageing? After they aged 90 days you can probably wait forever and eventually find a block, but I guess all the waiting time is lost in terms of minting additional coins…?[/quote]

Just go to http://ppc.cryptocoinexplorer.com/block/c5321559f8b081c2e3192b35131b14d22b8eb971770de11b045c826f3351fa50 and look through the blocks a bit. As an example block 86440 was a Proof of Stake block, generated 0.13 PPC with a 53.55 PPC.


#37

Thanks for the pointer. I can’t really deduce how long this guy had to wait for it though as his account has ‘too many records’. I guess I’d need to know the exact instant that 53.55 PPC was transferred to the account for that. How long does it take in your experience with an amount like ~50 PPC? or 100 PPC or 1000 PPC for that matter. Just to get an indication.


#38

We can find some examples in the block chain. Adress PCExFGLUpvYzSu45mag67b7Xb8bqJ9Hsrb received 470.56 on 2013-11-10 15:58:18 then minted 0.49PPC on 2013-12-18 21:03:59 block http://ppc.cryptocoinexplorer.com/block/6012a5cf28bf22f466ab7a8765940b4f4e624324a7be246cec2cee116240833e

You just have to browse the block chain and find examples of what you are looking for on addresses that can be displayed.


#39

I’ve read about the concepts of coin-age and the PoS blocks and understand it. The part I’m having trouble figuring out is what to expect as far as returns.

If I am correct, there is 1% per year PoS inflation. Does that mean if I hold 1000 PPC for an entire year, I can expect to get 10 PPC from PoS blocks? Or is the 1% just an estimate and the PoS blocks are more like a lottery. If that is the case then it could be more or less than 1%

I know this is simplistic, but that is kind of where I am at now…

Thanks


#40

It will be very close to 10. You might have more due to compound interest as after each time you mint you will now have more coins that will mint next time.