Well, I have an opinion on this which is not necessarily the opinion of this community. I don’t think there is a problem to be solved here.
If anything it helps XXcoin to strengthen their network and encourages other XXcoins to start and doing the same. Not sure if there is value in that other than spreading the mining capacity across many coins and reducing the risk of 51% attacks on mined coins. This risk doesn’t exist for Peercoin though.
I don’t think we should be part of this initiative because:
By mining other coins and not paying miners out, you would basically parasite on them which is not a great thing to do
Peercoin promotes proof-of-stake to secure the coin due to its low energy profile. To mine other coins and waste energy doesn’t make sense to me
Having miners buying Peercoins builds a centralised dependency once we have only a few very large consolidated mining institutes left.
The risk is that someone ends up with big stacks of Peercoins, instead of distributing them
I don’t think the backbone argument is that strong, it is not that hard to exchange mined XXcoin for Peercoins.
Just to let everyone know again, you can still mine Peercoins directly and in the foreseeable future. With that you help distributing the Peercoins, but it is not supporting the security of the Peercoin network which is done entirely by proof-of-stake. But with keeping your mined Peercoins and put them up for stake you are supporting the security. So I think there is enough incentive to continue some level of mining.
Having said that, there is not much we can do to stop this development as far as I’m aware.
like the idea because it gives people another way to get some peercoins, second, doing this it says that peercoin isnt one of the altcoins, but one of the maincoins, tho understand your concerns about it
[quote=“Cybnate, post:2, topic:2281”]Well, I have an opinion on this which is not necessarily the opinion of this community. I don’t think there is a problem to be solved here.
If anything it helps XXcoin to strengthen their network and encourages other XXcoins to start and doing the same. Not sure if there is value in that other than spreading the mining capacity across many coins and reducing the risk of 51% attacks on mined coins. This risk doesn’t exist for Peercoin though.
I don’t think we should be part of this initiative because:
By mining other coins and not paying miners out, you would basically parasite on them which is not a great thing to do
Peercoin promotes proof-of-stake to secure the coin due to its low energy profile. To mine other coins and waste energy doesn’t make sense to me
Having miners buying Peercoins builds a centralised dependency once we have only a few very large consolidated mining institutes left.
The risk is that someone ends up with big stacks of Peercoins, instead of distributing them
I don’t think the backbone argument is that strong, it is not that hard to exchange mined XXcoin for Peercoins.
Just to let everyone know again, you can still mine Peercoins directly and in the foreseeable future. With that you help distributing the Peercoins, but it is not supporting the security of the Peercoin network which is done entirely by proof-of-stake. But with keeping your mined Peercoins and put them up for stake you are supporting the security. So I think there is enough incentive to continue some level of mining.
Having said that, there is not much we can do to stop this development as far as I’m aware.[/quote]
The idea of this multipool isn’t to solve a problem. It’s actually PR. When a pool pays its shares in PPC, the question of why would I want PPC instead of say BTC would be raised. That provides a venue to educate miners (specifically non peercoin miners) about the the benefits PPC provides in terms of security on the long run and stability. This is most definitly NOT a pool designed with the goal of driving people away from mining peercoin at all. For current Peercoin miners, DO NOT SWITCH to such a multipool if your goal is supporting PPC (just wanted to make it clear). This pool’s main goal would be: PR
PR: By providing an alternative to BTC to collect your mining rewards, people question why is this even considered an option. Let’s face it, most people out there don’t truly understand the fundemental ideas behind Peercoin and rather look at it as a mere altcoin they can trade. What’s even worse, they’re reading 1% transaction fee and scream PPC IS A WASTE OF MONEY! I know because I was one of those people screaming (in my head :P) until i did much more reading and research and instantly fell in love with peercoin. This pool would attract miners who are not currently mining peercoin, who have hardware better used for hashing algrithms other than what peercoin has and want to mine with it and still paid in PPC. By observing people’s reactions after they understand what problem Peercoin is trying to solve and how it’s not trying to be a one size fits all currency but rather a filler of a need for a backbone of the currency, those people instantly fall in love with peercoin and see the value in it.
If parasiting on other currencies is a concern, then for the sake of simplicity provide separate pools for each coin much like the way multipool.us does it where every currency mining pool would get a port. The users choose which ones they want to mine themselves. The only difference is that they get direct payments in PPC rather than the mined coin. Kind of like a hyprid between what middlecoin.com is doing but without the hopping coins on one port and multipool.us where they provide ports for each currency but the payments are fully made in PPC. There are several pools that do that auto transaction to a base currency like cleavermining.com , hashco.ws , middlecoin.com and probably others that i don’t know of … those focus on hopping for profitability but we have the choice to do that or use the other approach of providing separate ports for each currency. Either ways, mining other currencies and getting paid in PPC would create a good medium for PR and actually generate publicity as currently all multipools operate on BTC … when a multipool shows up dealing a different currency, they will create some buzz.
That’s how I view it… maybe the thread would have been better at a PR forum rather than the mining one to avoid the confusion.
This suggestion isn’t really to solve a problem but to create a medium for PR and tool that i believe will help
From a purely PR perspective it probably makes sense, but I think my concerns which inevitably come with this proposal are still valid.
And there might be other better and more effective ways to do PR.
@irritant, don’t understand your argument. If coins as Vertcoin (and Blackcoin?) are also adding this why would Peercoin than be considered a backbone currency and Vertcoin not.
I think we won’t be the only one on the list of altcoins? It would just be another mad rush to get your coin listed with some of the big miners, wouldn’t it?
Would be great to hear what others think, I’m just one voice.
Because every miner mines different coins with different efficiency, they usually mine the most profitable one after considering the cost of switching. If we give them the option of getting paid in PPC while mining XXcoin, more global hash power will be directed to owning PPC, increasing the demand of PPC, and helps to push down XX/PPC, and effectively making mining PPC more profitable to mine compared with XXcoin. This is not against PPC’s energy efficiency philosophy because no extra hash power is created, just more percentage of existing hash power is used to own PPC.
This make sense, because typically people mine alt coins, dump them on the market to buy Bitcoin. This saves them a step, and is a selling point.
At the moment, most people aren’t interested in mining alt coins to buy Peercoin today. So you’d be giving them an extra step to have to dump Peercoin and buy Bitcoin. Not only is this problematic for the miner, it will also cause Peercoins to constantly be sold on the market, lowering their value.
This would be a bad situation for Peercoin at the moment. I hope this mining and getting paid in PPC for mining pools of other alt coins does not work.
That’s actually great news. I hope people lose the incentive to mine it. Our network security is based on Proof-of-stake (and checkpointing at the moment). Proof-of-work (aka mining) is simply for coin distribution. The less people that mine it, means the less coins there are in existence. That increases the rarity of the coin, and less dumping on the markets. It also means the coins in my wallet become rarer.
No one said we have to distribute all these coins right now. By the way, notice I mentioned “mining” and not “minting”. We always want people to mint coins.
Imagine all the thousands and thousands of new blocks that would be added to our block chain for miners getting paid 1 PPC here, and 2 PPC there just so they can sell it for Bitcoin (since that’s the highest valued coin at the moment). It would inflate our blockchain which we wouldn’t want.\
(Arguably, this is already happening on Peercoin mining pools. But many miners aren’t trading their Peercoin for Bitcoin. They know how valuable Peercoin will be, so they are mining and keeping them. Most altcoin miners today really do just want Bitcoin because it’s such a high price)
Irregardless of the PR and the neat uses for Peercoin, it actually hurts our coin in the multiple ways I’ve explained.
Peercoin is good for moving significant amounts of wealth. (Not tiny mining amounts every couple days adding to blockchain bloat).
Peercoin is good for holding and storing wealth (not transferring it and dumping it on exchanges to buy Bitcoin)
Your heart was in the right place, but as I mentioned, this is some thing our community should be against.
isn’t it obvious that people that want bitcoin will mine at a bitcoin multipool (clevermining, middlecoin, ghash, multipool, hashcows ), a peercoin multipool is for people that want peercoin, not for people that want to sell them, and the fixed tx fee already takes care of the blockchain, also the miners will have some payout threshold to reach before their transaction will be added to the next block, there will not be thousands of new blocks be added, the number of blocks will be the same, average one every 10 minutes, you’re talking about transactions, i still think it is a good idea, the distribution of wealth will be better even, in my opinion
i dont see so many problems with it , think it will be happening anyway, look at ghash, they already have the option to convert to BTC and LTC, only a little bit of effort and they could just add PPC also
edit: price would probably go up, because of the alts that need to be converted to ppc
And as a side benefit to Peercoin, the buy orders that would be generated by the multipool buying the Peercoins using other currencies would help support its growth towards the levels we all know it deserves and lift it from its current undervalued state.
I have to disagree. It also makes sense for people who want to get Peercoins rather by mining them than by buying them - even if they don’t mine them directly
Not mining PPC but mining other coins and trading them to PPC may be affect Peercoin in more ways than just from a PR perspective.
This make sense, because typically people mine alt coins, dump them on the market to buy Bitcoin. This saves them a step, and is a selling point.
At the moment, most people aren’t interested in mining alt coins to buy Peercoin today.
[…][/quote]
I’m mining the famous “alt coin” Bitcoin to trade it for Peercoins today.
Just some numbers game:
With 1 TH/s mining Bitcoin (diff 6,978,842,650) you can expect to earn 0.0721 BTC per day.
With 1 TH/s mining Peercoin (diff 151,657,648) you can expect to earn 11.82 PPC per day.
At an exchange rate of 0.00484 BTC per PPC you could make 14.89 PPC per day by mining BTC and exchanging them to PPC.
So you get roughly 25% extra if you don’t mine PPC but BTC instead.
This changes over time as it largely depends on the exchange rate and the PoW difficulty of Peercoin, but that’s what I got as the idea behind IndigoMan’s post.
Such a pool would help you by doing the math in the background. I need to calculate whether it’s more efficient to mine PPC or BTC over and over and over (because it depends mainly on the exchange rate and the PPC PoW difficulty). I’d like to join such a pool that pays me in PPC and uses the hash rate for mining more efficiently than in mining PPC directly.
And as long as PoW doesn’t help Peercoin’s security I don’t know why I shouldn’t mine any other coin (instead of participating in Peercoin’s PoW) and trade that for PPC if that makes in an economical perspective more sense…
How big of a market is out there for people who want to mine and sell off altblocks for peercoin? I guess we’d have to find out the hard way by trying it.
Not really. Irregardless of whether or not 0.01 PPC is paid per transaction, we’d like to encourage the best use of the block chain by transferring significant amounts not very often. Multipool mining would encourage multiple payouts. (Most people don’t trust pools to hold their coins earned for weeks and months. They want a payout every few days).
Interesting viewpoint. If mining pools who mine other alts pay out in PPC, and no one wants to convert to Bitcoin, our price goes up.
This in theory works! As long as no one wants Bitcoin.
Any one else have an opinion on this? Like to hear from as many people as possible.
[quote=“masterOfDisaster, post:9, topic:2281”]I’m mining the famous “alt coin” Bitcoin to trade it for Peercoins today.
Just some numbers game:
With 1 TH/s mining Bitcoin (diff 6,978,842,650) you can expect to earn 0.0721 BTC per day.
With 1 TH/s mining Peercoin (diff 151,657,648) you can expect to earn 11.82 PPC per day.
At an exchange rate of 0.00484 BTC per PPC you could make 14.89 PPC per day by mining BTC and exchanging them to PPC.[/quote]
Thanks for this info, it adds another angle. That’s true, while Peercoin is completely undervalued, this makes sense from some one who is mathematically adept to calculate the benefit.
However, if you are mining at a much slower hashrate, mining at a Peercoin pool will probably get you paid a lot faster than if you mine at a Bitcoin pool right now. Do the same math with running only 5 Gh/sec and you’ll see the pay difference isn’t quite the same. When you are running 1 TH/s you get a larger block reward share, than if you do if you’re divided among hundreds of slower 5 GH/sec miners.
So instead of becoming the norm, you may be the exception to the rule.
As in all things, I guess the market will dictate. If there are enough people who want to gain Peercoin by mining-and-dumping other alts, then I suppose a multipool that pays in Peercoin can’t be all that bad.
This is one of those lively debates where most people have some thing to share. I enjoy hearing the different view points.
I believe that we should focus on…
Exchanges do a PPC/alt-coin for trading, because transfers IN/OUT from an exchange are a lot less frequent (and usually a bigger dollar value transferred), for example, you might transfer IN $500 on Monday, and transfer OUT $750 on Saturday. That would be a transaction sitting on the blockchain worthwhile. You made $250 and the 0.01 transaction fees make sense for some thing like that.
instead of:
Multipool mining pools, where people earn fragments of coins (or small amounts of coins) and transfer them on the block chain on a regular basis, adding to the size of the blockchain.
For a certain group, the Peercoin multipool makes a lot of sense. I think for they majority though, while Bitcoin is still in the spotlight, it will hurt us more than it will help us.
How big of a market is out there for people who want to mine and sell off altblocks for peercoin? I guess we’d have to find out the hard way by trying it.[/quote]
If I can point my SHA-256 hardware (the calculation below with 1 TH/s was just an example ) to it and it rewards me better than a PPC pool, I’m in
Not really. Irregardless of whether or not 0.01 PPC is paid per transaction, we’d like to encourage the best use of the block chain by transferring significant amounts not very often. Multipool mining would encourage multiple payouts. (Most people don’t trust pools to hold their coins earned for weeks and months. They want a payout every few days).[/quote]
How many addresses can you use in one transaction with “sendmany”? Wouldn’t that work for now?
At the current PPC price level 0.01 PPC/kB tx fee is not really stopping block chain bloating. I’m afraid that it currently seems to be partly the low adoption level and for sure the demand to keep the PPC in the wallet for PoS minting, that prevent the bloating.
The tx fee will for sure do its job once PPC tx get pricey!
Interesting viewpoint. If mining pools who mine other alts pay out in PPC, and no one wants to convert to Bitcoin, our price goes up.
This in theory works! As long as no one wants Bitcoin.
Any one else have an opinion on this? Like to hear from as many people as possible. :)[/quote]
I want Bitcoins - to exchange them to Peercoins!
…that creates demand for PPC at exchanges, PPC price rises, PPC mining becomes more attractive, miners switch to PPC, the PPC PoW diff rises, the PPC PoW block reward diminishes, miners start to mine BTC again to trade them for PPC, and so forth…
And if you don’t let individual miners do the math and hand it over to a pool instead, this process (of mining BTC and tarding them for PPC vs. mining PPC directly) can be automated
This pool does something similar with scrypt coins - it mines whatever is most profitable and pays out LTC: https://www.ltcrabbit.com/index.php?page=altcoin
It seems that the “altcoin bonus” currently is 0, but I know that it has not always been 0
[quote=“ppcman, post:10, topic:2281”][quote=“masterOfDisaster, post:9, topic:2281”]I’m mining the famous “alt coin” Bitcoin to trade it for Peercoins today.
Just some numbers game:
With 1 TH/s mining Bitcoin (diff 6,978,842,650) you can expect to earn 0.0721 BTC per day.
With 1 TH/s mining Peercoin (diff 151,657,648) you can expect to earn 11.82 PPC per day.
At an exchange rate of 0.00484 BTC per PPC you could make 14.89 PPC per day by mining BTC and exchanging them to PPC.[/quote]
Thanks for this info, it adds another angle. That’s true, while Peercoin is completely undervalued, this makes sense from some one who is mathematically adept to calculate the benefit.
[…]
So instead of becoming the norm, you may be the exception to the rule.[/quote]
I take this as a compliment :-*
ok, those comparisons in btc and ppc profitabilaty are with sha256 mining hardware yes, dont forget most multipools (if not all) are scrypt based, and mine the most profitable scrypt coin, and it is/was for the left over gpu miners, so … no you would not be able to put your sha hardware there, maybe multipools will support other gpu coins too in the future, since scrypt has got their asic, but who knows…
This single thing is 50% of what I’m concerned about. The 0.01 transaction fee while Peercoin is trading at around $2.15 USD isn’t a barrier, and people will happily transact at these levels, inflating our blockchain.
The next thing is 50% of what I’m concerned about. People mining on a multipool to earn Peercoin and dumping it for Bitcoin “today” since Peercoin is at $2.15 USD
Both of these concerns will probably be unfounded in 6 to 12 months from now. But this is a real concern at this precise moment.
That’s why I’m shying away from Peercoin paid multipools to mine-and-dump alternate coins.
they wont do this, because they would just be mining on a bitcoin multipool instead
and the low price is more an incentive to hodl than to dump, only because the tx fee is still affordable you say that is wy people would want to ?
they wont do this, because they would just be mining on a bitcoin multipool instead
and the low price is more an incentive to hodl than to dump, only because the tx fee is still affordable you say that is wy people would want to ?[/quote]
When you say “they wont do this”, what you really mean, is that you or I wouldn’t do this, because there is a better, more logical way.
But I guarantee you, a lot of people “will still do this”, because people are either lazy, they are new, or they don’t understand every little part of cryptocurrency and the way it works.
I learned a long time ago, not every one thinks like you or I do… So “yes, they will do this”
How big of a market is out there for people who want to mine and sell off altblocks for peercoin? I guess we’d have to find out the hard way by trying it.[/quote]
I guess you are not aware that there is a whole industry catering for people who mine the most profitable coins at the moment and sell it for an different asset (BTC, alcoins, fiat …)
My GPU is better for scrypt-jane than SHA by 5-10 times. I don’t mine PPC. I mine other coins to buy PPC.
they wont do this, because they would just be mining on a bitcoin multipool instead
and the low price is more an incentive to hodl than to dump, only because the tx fee is still affordable you say that is wy people would want to ?[/quote]
When you say “they wont do this”, what you really mean, is that you or I wouldn’t do this, because there is a better, more logical way.
But I guarantee you, a lot of people “will still do this”, because people are either lazy, they are new, or they don’t understand every little part of cryptocurrency and the way it works.
I learned a long time ago, not every one thinks like you or I do… So “yes, they will do this”[/quote]
ok maybe, but not because they are lazy, if they are lazy they would just mine at the bitcoinpool if they wanted bitcoin , because they are crazy
I have to disagree. It also makes sense for people who want to get Peercoins rather by mining them than by buying them - even if they don’t mine them directly
Not mining PPC but mining other coins and trading them to PPC may be affect Peercoin in more ways than just from a PR perspective.
This make sense, because typically people mine alt coins, dump them on the market to buy Bitcoin. This saves them a step, and is a selling point.
At the moment, most people aren’t interested in mining alt coins to buy Peercoin today.
[…][/quote]
I’m mining the famous “alt coin” Bitcoin to trade it for Peercoins today.
Just some numbers game:
With 1 TH/s mining Bitcoin (diff 6,978,842,650) you can expect to earn 0.0721 BTC per day.
With 1 TH/s mining Peercoin (diff 151,657,648) you can expect to earn 11.82 PPC per day.
At an exchange rate of 0.00484 BTC per PPC you could make 14.89 PPC per day by mining BTC and exchanging them to PPC.
So you get roughly 25% extra if you don’t mine PPC but BTC instead.
This changes over time as it largely depends on the exchange rate and the PoW difficulty of Peercoin, but that’s what I got as the idea behind IndigoMan’s post.
Such a pool would help you by doing the math in the background. I need to calculate whether it’s more efficient to mine PPC or BTC over and over and over (because it depends mainly on the exchange rate and the PPC PoW difficulty). I’d like to join such a pool that pays me in PPC and uses the hash rate for mining more efficiently than in mining PPC directly.
And as long as PoW doesn’t help Peercoin’s security I don’t know why I shouldn’t mine any other coin (instead of participating in Peercoin’s PoW) and trade that for PPC if that makes in an economical perspective more sense…[/quote]
I am currently working on script that does these calculations and tell me the most efficient way to mine for PPC be it by mining PPC directly or mining for BTC or LTC then exchanging it for PPC. Most multipools out there are mining based on current USD value of the coin which is not my goal in this script. The goal is to mine for the most number of PPC regardless of its current USD value because i believe that it will flourish in the long run. Possible future development in the script might include other coins or other multipools and use their daily BTC or LTC return as the base for comparison. If people might be interested in this, i might open a thread and post the script for anyone to use.
The current USD price is no bad indicator for calculations because the coin/coin and the coin/USD trading pairs are connected. Differences between those trading pairs are evened out by arbitrage trading.
[quote=“masterOfDisaster, post:19, topic:2281”]The current USD price is no bad indicator for calculations because the coin/coin and the coin/USD trading pairs are connected. Differences between those trading pairs are evened out by arbitrage trading.
sent by Tapatalk[/quote]
You are correct. The current USD value is certainly releavent in the decision especially to those who are investing heavily in mining and want a return on investment. I am not a heavy miner myself but I still would like to get a piece of the pie (however riny :D) … and therefore seeking an efficient long term investment. I predict, like many, the PPC/USD will will skyrocket in the next couple of years. Therefore i’m focusing my mining energy on it getting as many Peercoins as efficiently as possible. If we focus on the current USD value of PPC, it wouldn’t seem like an effecient investment. But keeping in mind my belief that it will go up within the next year or two to be at least on the level of bitcoin if not even exceed it, it’s a logical way of approaching the investment. Just my view of it…
I’ve finished a prototype of the script last night that pulls data from public api’s for rates and coin statistics and does a comparison on which mining would be most efficient at increasing my PPC portfolio. Here is a copy of the results i got.
Note: The rates are based on cryptsy.com not including fees. This also doesn’t take into account pool fees and transaction fees.
This test was done on 8:40 am PDT
PLease enter your SHA256 (BTC, PPC) hashing power in Ghash/s: .023
PLease enter your SCRYPT (LTC) hashing power in Mhash/s: .07
******************** RATES ********************
*********** PPC/BTC = 0.00495151 **************
*********** PPC/LTC = 0.20604723 **************
Mining PPC : 0.0002646399289117246576885809931 PPC / day
Mining BTC : 0.0003347346412124922932137729531 PPC / day
Mining LTC : 0.05648200421312667390473594627 PPC / day
I was surprised when I saw the difference of PPC per day if I mined LTC and traded directly. Granted this might be inaccurate for LTC as it was the last thing I added today then had to leave to do other stuff. But if it’s accurate, that’s a HUGE piece of information!
UPDATE: I just redid the math using the coinwarz.com calculator for mining LTC then did the math for exchanging that amount for PPC and that was accurate. I don’t know if that will be different for other hash powers but for mine i’m better off mining LTC and exchanging it for PPC.
[quote=“IndigoMan, post:20, topic:2281”][…]
PLease enter your SHA256 (BTC, PPC) hashing power in Ghash/s: .023
PLease enter your SCRYPT (LTC) hashing power in Mhash/s: .07
[…][/quote]
It’s good to see that you go for a script that does the hard work of repeatedly calculating the most efficient way.
But the results of your script are a bit of comparing apples and oranges.
No wonder that LTC is the winner, because the relative hash rate for LTC is much higher than the hash rate for BTC (and I have to ask if there’s a comma error at the scrypt hash rate…); 23 MH/s for SHA256 is close to nothing and 70 kh/s for scrypt is not much, but in relation to the SHA256 hash rate way above!
Assuming a GPU that does the scrypt hashing I wonder why it is only 0.07 MH/s or 70 kh/s. I’d have expected something between 320 kh/s (Radeon5850) and 800 kh/s (Radeon R9 280).
With these GPUs you could have approximately the same number values for SHA256 hashing but with measurement unit MH/s (but for sure GPU mining SHA256 makes no economical sense).
Speaking of economics…
To put this in a fair economical relation, you need to take the energy that is needed by the mining device into consideration to find out whether it makes more sense to simply buy PPCs instead of mining them (or anything else to trade it for them). You don’t want to waste more money for paying your electricity bill than you’d have to pay for purchasing the same amount of PPC at an exchange, right?
Currently ASICs for mining BTCs to trade them for PPC seems to be fine.
And mining LTCs with GPUs to trade them for PPC should be fine, too.
…that will change. I’m excited about your approach to assist the decision what to do by a script!
