Compilation of Sunny's Sidechain comments

This paints a pretty interesting picture.

[quote=“Sunny King”] I am planning this for next year. So here I’d like to gather community feedback and interest.

To enable future peer-to-peer marketplace and other advanced p2p applications I am considering adding auxiliary transaction support for a major future release of ppcoin.

Main design point is

[ul] [li]Each regular block is associated with an auxiliary block.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary blocks are not permanent. They expire after some fixed time and are garbage collected by ppcoind.[/li]
[li]Each auxiliary block includes a set of auxiliary transactions.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transactions also has expiration and may include a (key, value) data item in each output script.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transactions also pay transaction fee.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction output cannot be spent by regular transactions.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction may spend regular transaction output only if it’s a special pay-to-auxiliary type.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction/auxiliary block is not allowed to mint coins.[/li]
[/ul]

The above describes the internals of a recyclable auxiliary block chain feature.

A potential p2p marketplace software that communicates with ppcoind may implements:

[ul] [li]Listings are inserted into block chain as auxiliary transaction outputs.[/li]
[li]Listing includes seller’s cryptographic identity, item description and asking price. Output has amount 0 and can be spent by anyone with another auxiliary transaction. Spender effectively claims the listing (becomes buyer) and may encrypt his/her shipping address in the auxiliary transaction output.[/li]
[li]Buyer now makes payment according to listing instructions.[/li]
[li]Users leave rating/feedback via an auxiliary transaction for the target identity.[/li]
[li]Manage identity/reputation/web-of-trust.[/li]
[li]Index listings and provide search functionality.[/li]
[/ul]

Note this feature is a generic design and may enable other type of p2p applications, for example, a domain name system similar to namecoin.

Comments, suggestions and feature discussions are very welcome  :)
Also looking for any community interest in designing marketplace or other softwares taking advantage of this feature.[/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [size=12pt]Weekly Update #6[/size]

[ul] [li]This week we have seen a lot more proof-of-stake blocks generated on the block chain. More and more users are seeing stake values and getting familiar with the proof-of-stake process. It is expected that proof-of-stake difficulty continue to drop from the current 16 in the following week. Eventually proof-of-stake block should approach 10-minute block spacing target and proof-of-work blocks approach ~30-minute spacing.[/li]
[li]I have published an auxiliary transaction proposal for a future major release of ppcoin. In my opinion it would enable ppcoin to serve as a general peer-to-peer infrastructure for many advanced future peer-to-peer applications, such as marketplace. Interested developers are welcome to review the proposal and give comments and suggestions.[/li]
[li]Work has started on v0.3. My current plan is to have v0.3 ready within four weeks approximately.[/li]
[/ul]

[i][b]Thank all for your kind support and have a great week![/b][/i][/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [quote=“DannyM”] Distributed censorship resistant domain names.

Mapping names such as hostnames or nicknames to public key fingerprints

Messaging.

Register a bitcoin address, namecoin address, XMPP/jabber ID, email address, SIP address, street address, URL, etc to an alias.

Web of trust.

File sharing via magnet links/info hashes.

Voting.

Title system & asset/share/bond transfer.

[/quote]

Who are doing these type of projects for namecoin?

I have made a proposal for aux transactions in ppcoin. I hope interested developers of these potential applications take a look at the ppcoin proposal and it addresses the block chain bloating issue.

[url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113615.0]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113615.0[/url][/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [quote=“phelix”] I like the colored coins idea (and the name) but pretty much the only advantage vs namecoin that I see is divisibility.

Namecoin has other advantages:
* it is available and running right now
* it can be used for many other things like: wot, newscast, aliases, ...

With a wot established it could be used for a truly decentralized but automatic exchange. You could just offer your shares by setting the value field to something like: "ask:42.0nmc". A buyer can then send the money to the name and will receive the name in return. of course you have to trust the person holding the name.

[/quote]

I have proposed an auxiliary transaction feature (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113615.0) with ppcoin to natively facilitate distributed storage of key-value. Auxiliary transactions/blocks are deleted after expiration thus addressing the block chain bloat issue with a namecoin/bitcoin solution.

I plan to start implementing this feature in a couple of months but I would love to hear comments as to what app writers would need (such as your proposed exchange). If I got time I might consider doing a simple web-of-trust app prototype to test out the auxiliary transaction feature as well.

[/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [quote=“phelix”] it would be nice to be able to keep “keys” (“names”) you don’t own from expiring. That would make the handling of bonds and stocks a little easier.
[/quote]

Expiration is necessary to be able to drop old blocks and improve scalability. User/apps are expected to 'refresh' data before its expiration. For example, you can 'spend' your old output which is about to expire and create a new transaction for it.[/quote]

[quote="Sunny King"]        Just to test some waters here, do we think there is a market for peer-to-peer trading like bitcoin-otc (http://bitcoin-otc.com/)? I checked their website but there is no altcoins in the 'otherthing' column, which presumably supports quite a number of currency units.

    Is this simply because of lack of interest in trading? Or maybe there is a more popular place to trade goods/services in bitcoin (ala ebay craigslist) that I am not aware of?[/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [size=12pt]Weekly Update #44[/size]

[ul] [li]A new exchange coins-e.com now supports PPC trading.[/li]
[li]Captcha requirement is reduced on the ppcoin.org marketplace (http://ppcoin.org/market) to help users trade, also the rating thread and rating format is now up.[/li]
[li]Several new coins have been added to the marketplace for trading including onecoin and sifcoin, two latest cpu altcoins.[/li]
[li]I see peer-to-peer trading as an important part of cryptocurrency community in the future. As we can see recently, the political environment for the exchange operators are not very amenable. The goal of PPC Marketplace is to experiment in this area and gain some experience for me, while keeping its scope limited so that I can still focus on development and operations.[/li]
[/ul]

Have fun![/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [quote=“shaitand”] …
My thought is essentially another decentralized network but a P2P trade network. This would have a simple API that would among other possibilities allow merchants to accept a Bitcoin payment from a customer and immediately generate a sell order for a desired alternative currency be it USD, EUR, Gold, whatever.

[/quote]
It’s on my todo list for a while.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113615

I would cross out the escrow part for a first release.

You missed the important first step:
Obtain the capital and take the risk to start such a project.

Ripple has been in development for I guess at least a year? No it hasn't turned profitable yet.

What is it that you disliked about ripple?[/quote]

[quote=“Sunny King”] [quote=“retep”] Satoshi was solidly against the development of alt-clients, even just to spend coins let alone mining. That said those were very early days and he probably wanted the flexibility to change things as Bitcoin’s core evolved, and it did. There is some really kooky code from those days in the repository though; did you know Satoshi wrote the beginnings of an EBay like auction market and put it in the client itself?
[/quote]

Very interesting. What happened to these code for the beginnings of bitbay?[/quote]

From http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2794.0

bytemaster: I would like to understand the sidechains proposal better too to see if it can be adapted to POS

bytemaster: so perhaps that is an area of collaboration… if side chains can work ( and I have my doubts) then it would be a great innovations.

Sunny King: Sure we could help each other on that. As far as I can see it should be okay, I have thought about similar designs way back when I talked about data applications in peercoin

Sunny King: I used to call them auxiliary blocks/blockchains

bytemaster: it seems to me that the main chain cannot validate a side chain without relying on a simplifying assumption such as a trusted signature or hash power

bytemaster: otherwise the side chains have to be fully processed by the miners on the main chain

Sunny King: Using bitcoin dev’s term, if it’s pegged one way, i.e. bitcoin is destroyed when moving to sidechain, it’s probably easy to achieve opt-in

bytemaster: that doesn’t achieve a peg… with BitBTC under BitShares X we can peg a digital asset to BTC just like the dollar (assuming it works).

Sunny King: I don’t think data applications always require two-way peg, but if bitcoin achieves that with opt-in it would be nice.

Sunny King: no the term peg used in sidechain term is different from what you mean in bitUSD

From: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2862.0

Sunny King: I think strategically this year I would really want to take a good look at bitcoin's sidechain implementation

Ben: …as a potential integration point with Peercoin, or, as a possible extension of the Peercoin protocol?

Sunny King: I have always wanted to expand our currencies to data applications of the future, I thought about what I call ‘auxliary block chain’ before bitcoin’s sidechain proposal

Sunny King: it’s okay, I can stay a bit longer no problem it’s up to you

Ben: That sounds like it could be very exciting for the crypto. May I ask if you have done more than just research at this point?

Sunny King: Right still at research point. I am also happy that bitcoin is starting in this direction, since I think it’s an important shift of the block chain technology toward more utility, you know, after namecoin pioneered the first data application of blockchain

irritant: storj?

Sunny King: But there could be a whole lot more, it’s also in sync with my view that cryptoproperty would rise with cryptocurrency together

From: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2934.0

Sunny King: Like I said, I am looking at possible side chain infrastructure development, we don't want to be left behind bitcoin in this area.

Ben: A related question, and I’ll use the submitter’s words to preface it…

Sunny King: In fact I have been thinking along this line since 2011. Originally I was thinking about supporting data applications inside peercoin network.

Ben: Let’s talk about that a bit (and then come back to the next question)

Sunny King: The main problem is blockchain is not quite scalable for such purposes.

Ben: When you use the term “data applications,” what do you have in mind? Would these be different cryptoassets, or something else?

Sunny King: And there are many many different data applications, so the thing would get very crowded

Sunny King: It could be cryptoassets related, ripple has been the pioneer in this, namecoin another pioneer in domain name application, you could have say messaging, or things like file system such as what super3 is considering

Sunny King: So the best approach is probably to let each application have it’s own side chain I think, not to interfere with the usability of base currency network

Sentinelrv: For those interested, this is Super3’s project: http://storj.io/

Ben: It sounds like you’d be a supporter if anyone wants to work on a “PeerMessage” ala BitMessage, or to take things in a whole different direction

Sunny King: I think yeah if we can provide the infrastructure to other developers that would be very useful

From: https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/the-real-sunny

SK: We were planning a minor protocol update with Primecoin. I am also investigating the possibility of sidechain technology, so when it's ready, we plan to support both peercoin and primecoin sidechains.

SM: Oh that’s awesome. I have heard you refer to it as the back-bone so I assume [that] this will allow the ability to now scale out new types of applications and properties.

SK: Yeah I have been contemplating data applications for quite a while since 2012. For scalability reasons, data for specific use is better [to] stay out of the currency block chain. That’s why side chain is a significant advancement.

SM: When you say data applications since 2012, are u talking about something like Storj? But on a side chain?

SK: Right. Namecoin and Ripple have been the pioneers in data applications. The problem is the impact on base currency scalability. It would be a lot better with sidechains, each application can use a different sidechain, say if you use email you deal with an email sidechain, so the scalability of email sidechain does not impact the scalability of another sidechain and the base currency blockchain.

This is from August 28th as well…

I really hope side chain applied on XPM/PPC. BTW, I still believe high hash rate PoW is hard to copy while PoS easily duplicated.

For example, Nu has easily coped PPC’s source code and reached as same security as PPC. PoS coins could not rebuilt Gold standard on internet.

Thanks Sent for adding that.

This quote here is the moneybag:

Main design point is

[ul] [li]Each regular block is associated with an auxiliary block.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary blocks are not permanent. They expire after some fixed time and are garbage collected by ppcoind.[/li]
[li]Each auxiliary block includes a set of auxiliary transactions.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transactions also has expiration and may include a (key, value) data item in each output script.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transactions also pay transaction fee.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction output cannot be spent by regular transactions.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction may spend regular transaction output only if it’s a special pay-to-auxiliary type.[/li]
[li]Auxiliary transaction/auxiliary block is not allowed to mint coins.[/li]
[/ul]

The above describes the internals of a recyclable auxiliary block chain feature.</blockquote>

This is exactly what my applications need. I’m making it happen by using op_return with a key that points to a cloud storage service. Sunny’s plan is using a transaction with a key on the mainchain that points to an external data store in a sidechain.

If Sunny manages to get this done, it’ll blow the Bitcoin concept of side-chains out of the water and open the floodgates for innovation in Peercoin.

really exciting! do you think it can be done before 2016?

Great compilation!
…“Peercoin’s development has stalled” I heard some say. I wonder what they are going to say after that kind of side chains has been released and applied to Peercoin.
Can’t wait for it!

SK implied he was ready to apply side chain on XPM first. Primecoin’s development has stalled!