Here’s a hypothetical question I want to throw to the group. Let’s say I had 100 million bucks to invest in PPC, BTC, or cryptos in general. Let’s say I’m an aggressive investor with a lot of capital behind me and a track record of investing in more conventional investments. How could I invest that money to meet the following objectives?
300% return in a 3 year horizon or less.
Liquidity to completely divest any positions in the currency or equity stakes in companies that may have been made.
No ownership or involvement with pornography or contraband marketplaces
No regulatory or legal issues around possible or perceived money laundering
Anything is on the table so long as it would meet the above constraints. Hiring developers, PR companies, buying stakes in etailers and making them accept PPC, whatever.
I do know that the only way to meet the liquidity constraint is to have a large and developed base of currency holders that are actively trading the currency (e.g. BTC on MtGox). So how can one make investments that develop the market while still achieving a hard ROI target?
Great ideas are welcome. I don’t have 100 million to invest but the money could be found if someone could provide a clear strategy that meets the targets and constraints I’ve outlined.
100 MM is quite a bit to quadruple in 3 years. Doing it with $1-2 MM would probably be easier. You might just be able to slowly load up on BTC and wait it out. Would work best if you were willing to keep most of your $400 MM in crypto at the end of things though. It will be more than 3 years til removing that much cash won’t crash the market.
In the spirit of walking before we can run PPC is in desperate need of a polished prospectus explaining in great detail what it is, how it works, the state of the development and community, risks, threats and a roadmap to the future. I’ve been reading as much as I can over the past month or so and I still have a lot of unanswered questions that this could resolve.
300% in 3 years, is this the goal? No interest in giving any hint. What I can say for sure is that I will earn at least 300% in 3 years if somebody wants to invest such an amount of money.
you have a track record of investing in more conventional investments
you are holding 100 million fiat
=> buy a few cryptocoins, trigger a crisis of confidence in a vunerable fiat - dollars would have the biggest correction, then sell your coins and buy 300 million fiat… then buy a loaf of bread.
One of the benefits of cryptocurrency is that beyond the initial investment there is less opportunity to make quick profit by manipulating the currency itself. Profit’s like that are simply theft… been done for millennium we’ve got used to it but a sound currency that reflects real wealth would be a world of change. People would focus on quality of life instead… which is more valuable than any % of growth in fiat.
[quote=“calian, post:2, topic:135”]100 MM is quite a bit to quadruple in 3 years. Doing it with $1-2 MM would probably be easier. You might just be able to slowly load up on BTC and wait it out. Would work best if you were willing to keep most of your $400 MM in crypto at the end of things though. It will be more than 3 years til removing that much cash won’t crash the market.
In the spirit of walking before we can run PPC is in desperate need of a polished prospectus explaining in great detail what it is, how it works, the state of the development and community, risks, threats and a roadmap to the future. I’ve been reading as much as I can over the past month or so and I still have a lot of unanswered questions that this could resolve.[/quote]
If liquidation wasn’t a priority you could easily quadruple an investment that large. Getting out would require 400mm in buyers and that would be impossible if you didn’t have at least 1 bn in market cap and a growing base. Even there it would be a challenge.
One of the things I keep looking at in the evolution of cryptos is crypto lending/banking. Buying up a big chunk of cryptos and setting up a lending business would do a lot to improve overall liquidity but it’s difficult to lend without getting into ‘real world’ collateral and securitization. Some of the things that make cryptos so attractive are major challenges in setting up fiat-analogous institutions that drive liquidity and expanding markets. A bank is a huge multiplier in money supply. If anyone could figure out a lending model that minimizes risk for a crypto bank I think we would see them develop.
Keep in mind also that until there is lending nobody can short sell the currency. 100 mm could ramp the price dramatically and keep it artificially high into the distant future. So the paper profit is easy. Developing the liquidity to exit is the hard part.
[quote=“davidpbrown, post:4, topic:135”]- you have a track record of investing in more conventional investments
you are holding 100 million fiat
=> buy a few cryptocoins, trigger a crisis of confidence in a vunerable fiat - dollars would have the biggest correction, then sell your coins and buy 300 million fiat… then buy a loaf of bread.
One of the benefits of cryptocurrency is that beyond the initial investment there is less opportunity to make quick profit by manipulating the currency itself. Profit’s like that are simply theft… been done for millennium we’ve got used to it but a sound currency that reflects real wealth would be a world of change. People would focus on quality of life instead… which is more valuable than any % of growth in fiat.[/quote]
You couldn’t move a major fiat currency a single pip with 100mm let alone trigger a crisis of confidence. Unless you’re talking about doing something with it besides trading the currency.
And while one of the possibilities in putting 100 mm to work would be that you could move small (BTC) and micro (PPC) markets around this doesn’t do anything for the longer term development. BTC has had two major news cycles that got everyone talking. More than anything it was those two periods where people got interested that drove market value. So ‘manipulating’ a crypto might be worthwhile in that you get the whole world talking. Where that conversation goes and how you channel that into economic activity is the harder question.
That’s how I’m looking at it. If we can chart the path for how PPC can develop and grow based on a solid strategy for a larger player we’ll be able to participate in smaller absolute size but potentially larger return percentages. What could you have done if you foresaw the development of BTC four years ago?
If we develop a strategy that works the idea will find its way to the people with money. But most people with that kind of money have no understanding of cryptos or the dynamics of the market. The thinking has to be done by the people that understand crypto.
For me investing or deinvesting is the same challange. If you say “Developing the liquidity to exit is the hard part” I feel you are not a believer in cryptos. And ramping on investing 100 mm is probable, but not sure.
I’m buying all the way down, and selling all the way up. I can freely decide how much, this is my timing. This way I stabilize the value of cryptos. My gain of value is small, but sure. This anti-cyclical investment is social, and large fluctuations (greed, panic, manipulation) increase my earnings.
So, if you do not believe in cryptos, and want to make money only, your money will be mine after some time.
For me investing or deinvesting is the same challange. If you say “Developing the liquidity to exit is the hard part” I feel you are not a believer in cryptos. And ramping on investing 100 mm is probable, but not sure.
I’m buying all the way down, and selling all the way up. I can freely decide how much, this is my timing. This way I stabilize the value of cryptos. My gain of value is small, but sure. This anti-cyclical investment is social, and large fluctuations (greed, panic, manipulation) increase my earnings.
So, if you do not believe in cryptos, and want to make money only, your money will be mine after some time.[/quote]
Actually, as I said elsewhere, I’m not the guy with the 100 mm. I am a believer in crypto for sure and I think PPC is the best coin technology around. But being the best doesn’t mean it’s going to last. There are a ton of examples where the best tech loses for whatever reason. I don’t want to exit the market or make a quick profit. But if there is a way a big investor could make 300mm profit out of a 100mm investment and leave the currency with a 1 bn market cap then I would love to see that happen, and yes, I would love to profit from it.
When the market cap of a stock or in this case a currency goes from zero to 1 bn dollars that is actual wealth creation occurring. There is a bn dollars of wealth that didn’t exist in the world prior to the appreciation. So in this case if an investor takes PPC from a 2 mm market cap to 1 bn and walks away with 400mm there’s still another 598mm of wealth that was created- wealth that you, I, and all the other people that believe in PPC would share in. I would put it to you that if you knew a move like this was coming you would be wise not to sell all the way up. You may be trading with a long-term bullish bias but in stock market terms you’re not a long-term investor, you’re a range trader.
If there’s a good case to be made to a person with that kind of investment capacity the money will come and we’d all be the better for it. I’m just trying to get my head around whether that is possible and how it could happen. If nothing else, we’d at least be able to see the signs along the way…
If you are a believer in crypto you will loose a lot if it fails. And this is possible.
To make such a big profit can only be done by manipulation, and this is stealing money from others, as someone stated before. But me and some other anti-cyclic traders will compete against it, and will profit from it.
As with any other value like gold or shares, the market cap is only a commitment of the value. It does make wealth in the average. If the wealth grows for one person, it decreases for the other person.
If you (or anyone) is investing 100mm Dollars into it, my weath will grow, yours will drop. But I’m a good guy, I will sell you some coins on a rising price.
If you are a believer in crypto you will loose a lot if it fails. And this is possible.
To make such a big profit can only be done by manipulation, and this is stealing money from others, as someone stated before. But me and some other anti-cyclic traders will compete against it, and will profit from it.
As with any other value like gold or shares, the market cap is only a commitment of the value. It does make wealth in the average. If the wealth grows for one person, it decreases for the other person.
Whifmoi,
Respectfully, you are wrong. This is not a zero sum game. When wealth is created one person does not win at the expense of another. There are many zero sum situations in financial markets but the scenario where PPC goes from 2mm USD market cap to 1 bn market cap is a situation where wealth (in USD terms) is created. We don’t care if the investor takes out 400mm because the whole market would be worth 1 bn and there was 598 mm created. That 300mm return wasn’t taken from someone else. It didn’t exist before.
This is why everyone freaks out when the stock market drops 10%. When that happens a few trillion dollars ceases to exist- that’s wealth that can’t be used as collateral, liquidated or reinvested and the destruction multiplies through the economy in money supply, contracting the economy.
Wealth creation occurs when assets are created and their value is recognized and agreed (by a market price). It happened with BTC and it may or may not occur with PPC. If you’re not clear on the concept of wealth creation take a look at this article I found that gives a good example of wealth creation in the stock market.
It is a zero sum game if the overall market cap doesn’t change. So if the PPC market cap remains unchanged after 2 or more traders engage in multiple trades at multiple prices- all of that profit and loss is zero sum.
My point is that if an investor can come in and through his/her investment facilitate development of the market to a much higher level then we should all be happy to let him make a killing. We would all, as holders and believers of and in PPC, be better off if the market was large and liquid.
[quote=“ifeelthefuture, post:5, topic:135”][quote=“calian, post:2, topic:135”]100 MM is quite a bit to quadruple in 3 years. Doing it with $1-2 MM would probably be easier. You might just be able to slowly load up on BTC and wait it out. Would work best if you were willing to keep most of your $400 MM in crypto at the end of things though. It will be more than 3 years til removing that much cash won’t crash the market.
In the spirit of walking before we can run PPC is in desperate need of a polished prospectus explaining in great detail what it is, how it works, the state of the development and community, risks, threats and a roadmap to the future. I’ve been reading as much as I can over the past month or so and I still have a lot of unanswered questions that this could resolve.[/quote]
If liquidation wasn’t a priority you could easily quadruple an investment that large. Getting out would require 400mm in buyers and that would be impossible if you didn’t have at least 1 bn in market cap and a growing base. Even there it would be a challenge.
One of the things I keep looking at in the evolution of cryptos is crypto lending/banking. Buying up a big chunk of cryptos and setting up a lending business would do a lot to improve overall liquidity but it’s difficult to lend without getting into ‘real world’ collateral and securitization. Some of the things that make cryptos so attractive are major challenges in setting up fiat-analogous institutions that drive liquidity and expanding markets. A bank is a huge multiplier in money supply. If anyone could figure out a lending model that minimizes risk for a crypto bank I think we would see them develop.
Keep in mind also that until there is lending nobody can short sell the currency. 100 mm could ramp the price dramatically and keep it artificially high into the distant future. So the paper profit is easy. Developing the liquidity to exit is the hard part.[/quote]
First PPC has to support colored coins. Next PPC has to leverage that to offer different kinds of assets. Freicoin plans on doing it, let PPC do it also.
Exchanging currencies is for sure a zero sum game.
Nobody can create wealth out of nothing. Wealth is created by the work of a nurse or fireman.
The exchange rate can jump without any trade. If Sunny removes his check-points, the price could jump 10 times higher with nearly no trade. It’s only a commitment, no need to invest a large sum of money. And it of course can fail, without any trade. This indeed would expose the Dollar has a higher value than the crypto.
I for myself have decided to give western currencies no value any more. I use these currencies for buying daily goods only, the rest is changed to cryptos, silver, shares, and all that I believe has real value.
I can explain it very very easy: You give me some Dollars, and I give you some PPcoins, after the agreement. The amount of Dollars or PPcoins alltogether has not changed, we simply had a commitment about the exchange rate.
The gain of wealth of one of us two traders is the decrease of wealth of the otherone.
[quote=“whifmoi, post:15, topic:135”]I can explain it very very easy: You give me some Dollars, and I give you some PPcoins, after the agreement. The amount of Dollars or PPcoins alltogether has not changed, we simply had a commitment about the exchange rate.
The gain of wealth of one of us two traders is the decrease of wealth of the otherone.[/quote]
Yes, that is the case between two traders but if the price ended 10% higher the value of all the other coins are 10% higher also. Please read the link I attached. I found that specifically for you as it illustrates a difficult concept well. I hope you enjoy it.
[quote=“ifeelthefuture, post:16, topic:135”][quote=“whifmoi, post:15, topic:135”]I can explain it very very easy: You give me some Dollars, and I give you some PPcoins, after the agreement. The amount of Dollars or PPcoins alltogether has not changed, we simply had a commitment about the exchange rate.
The gain of wealth of one of us two traders is the decrease of wealth of the otherone.[/quote]
Yes, that is the case between two traders but if the price ended 10% higher the value of all the other coins are 10% higher also. Please read the link I attached. I found that specifically for you as it illustrates a difficult concept well. I hope you enjoy it.[/quote]
What is about the persons that have no coins at the moment the price is rising?
I will answer myself. The persons without the rising coins will loose. They only have Dollars. The lost is very small (in the average), it’s negligible because of the huge amount of Dollars. Exactly the gain of the people that own the coins is the loss of people that own the Dollars.