Recheck our belief on PPC/XPM

TomJoad, saw this and wanted to comment.

NuBits is a fantastic idea, and has been very well executed. What you guys have done is phenomenal, and I hope NuBits grows to be ubiquitous among exchanges.

When looking at the playing field from the Peercoin sidelines, I see that cryptocurrency will have a hard-time going mainstream. I see NuBits as lowering that bar for getting your average joe involved in cryptocurrency. That’s all I meant by NuBits acting as a gateway drug - I hope it gets many, many people involved in cryptocurrency who otherwise wouldn’t, and I hope that some of those people continue experimenting with cryptocurrencies even further.

I didn’t intend to dismiss NuBits as merely a stepping stone to Peercoin. It is far more indeed.

I like how integrated our two communities (NuBits and Peercoin) are, and that we are able to contribute and grow from each other.

Basically that is true - as well as it is for food, water, gold, silver, Google shares, USD etc.
For some items in the list it’s more likely than for others. To be honest, I don’t know where to put Peercoin in that list.
But if you’d ask for a list of crypto coin related implementations, I’d put Peercoin quite at the top of the list od those I expect to last.
You may ask why I think so:
Peercoin is the first crypto coin that implemented a PoS secured block chain. The invention of PoS itself was originated by “Quantum Mechanic” on bitcointalk.org.
Kudos to Quantum Mechanic for inventing that AND kudos to Sunny King for successfully implementing it!
Being first PoS secured coin, being fair, being secure and sustainable are attributes that make Peercoin a candidate to be high on the list of survivors.

That might happen, but firstly I doubt that peercoin fails and secondly I doubt that Peercoin fails :wink:
The only reason I can imagine (my imagination might be limited, though) for Peercoin to completely fail economical wise is a failure technical wise; if the security of Peercoin’s block chain fails, that will for sure impact the price drastically and might ultimately render Peercoin worthless. The block chain is running safe and sound for close to 2.5 years with a quite high PoS difficulty. That is reason to put hope in the security concept. Cold minting is an indicator that the security might become even better.

[quote=“AM4Peercoin, post:50, topic:3273”]Distributing worthless coins would make dividends pointless and remove a good chunk of value from nushares, so they would definitely change something.
The Nubits system is not depended on peercoins, so peercoin shouldnt be on nu. Cooperation is good but peercoin itself has to be a good and attractive system.[/quote]
Peercoin doesn’t depend on Nu. Peercoin had value before Peershares have been invented. Nu might increase the value of Peercoin, though, because of the dividend distribution (remark: the most recent distribution was less than one day ago).
But Nu depends on Peercoin: it inherited Peercoin’s security model. Nu is protected by the PoS that was created for Peercoin. And Nu still depends on the wit of the Peercoin community. A large amount of Nu supporters is Peercoin supporter as well. Nu is able to attract more and more people, but I still consider Nu more dependent on Peercoin that the other way round.
Peercoin is attractive.
I don’t want to go into more detail, I just want to throw some names in:
Peerunity, Peershares, Peerbox, Peermessage[/quote]
@masterOfDisaster, I agree with you that PoS is a very important invention. When Quantum Mechanic talked on bitcointalk.org(2011?), Sunny King and his friends were also planing PoS mechanism so SK also an originator of PoS.

But we should think in an economics way besides caring about IT/Cryptographic. I mean the “scarcity” which is the fundamental precondition. PoS scheme can be easily copied, while BTC PoW has attracted lots expensive hardware behind it, you may easily copy an open source project but with the hardware you just cannot. There are several hundred of PoW copy cats but none of them has enough hash rate/hardware equipment like BTC, that means the quality/network security is very different so BTC has maintained its scarcity, “digital gold” concept makes sense.

But how does PPC deal with copy cats? Closed source? Impractical. Therefore, without scarcity, PPC will be cheap for ever.

My opinion is that the PoW suitable for “gold standard”, and PoS is NOT for “Gold” for its intrinsic feature. There are three economics theories with regard to monetary.

  1. paper money issued by government, print money from thin air. Economists: Keynes and Friedman
  2. Gold standard, metallic money. Economists: Mises? and a lot more.
  3. free competition private paper money, Economists: FA Hayek

Naturally , PoS is only suitable for Hayek model, PoS coins are paper money issued by people, there may be 100 even 1000 PoS coins WITH SAME SECURITY LEVEL if free market needed, so PoS coin has little gold feature being lack of SCARCITY.

[quote=“ppcman, post:52, topic:3273”][quote=“sabreiib, post:1, topic:3273”]The price is so low because neither PPC nor XPM could adjust their supply according to real world demand, wake up buddies, we must comply basic economics rule of demand and supply at first if we wanna the real world accept our coins, please sunny king and other developers think twice about it.

The volatile coin never never become a real currency, is this the consensus? If so, I"ll stay in this community, if not, I don’t think IT programmers, most of them are economics laymen, could rewrite the history of curency, neither is Bitcoin and satoshi![/quote]

I read your previous posts where you say that you’ve been holding XPM since 2013. I agree, Jan 2015 is a frustrating time price wise for both PPC and XPM.

Understand that crypto has undergone some severe turmoil with hacking, etc. We’re still at the design stage here. Not the adoption phase quite yet. We’re still launching cold wallet minting features.

The market place will determine demand. It’s much easier tocalculate the effect that future demand might require of the supply, and make buy & sell orders based on it. Finally we’re working with a definitive supply, that is public, and you don’t have these market spikes or drops every time the Central banks make an announcement and the insiders knew about it before the public.

You have to go into this with a very open mind. Old working thinking has taught us very little. It just shows us that we’re concurrently wrong every time we try to follow these tactics.

If you think Bitcoin and Peercoin are inherently flawed and can go no where, then it is those exact flaws that may actually change the future. Sometimes flaws can turn out to be features if exploited properly.

With Peercoin and XPM the race is long. From 2013 to 2015 is only 2 years. That’s tiny in the grand scheme of things to come.

Once we’ve done better with our wallets, block chains, exchanges, ATM’s, methods of obtain virtual coin, transferring coin, and ease of use, you’ll see application developers come running to adopt it.

You will find that pre-determined supply of a coin will actually be beneficial in the long run, unlike fiat. You’ll see.[/quote]

@ppcman, I give up arguing with you about the correctness of gold standard since quite some economists support it. There must be some good reasons behind gold standard and both BTC and PPC are simulating gold. Do you agree?

My opinion is that BTC/XPM may become “digital gold” in future while I prefer XPM because of more sustainability, excellent work of Sunny King!

But PoS predetermined supply coins just can NOT become digital gold for absence of SCARCITY as I posted above. However I’m still confident that PoS scheme can compete with PoW by implementing Hayek model(flexible supply + stable price).

BTC/XPM------->digital gold. But is gold a decent money?
anti inflation version NBT---------->good money, perhaps beat gold in future. :wink:

PoS is ideal for share concept and the Fiat/BTC hold in custodians’ hands can NOT easily counterfeited by copy cats therefore Nu system’s SCARCITY stands. Fiat/BTC is scarce,so is NBT. This is the war between different schools of economists, the blockchain/DAC is just surface tech and the hardcore battle of economics model has begun, I am excited.

http://www.coindesk.com/bill-gates-bitcoin-alone-wont-solve-global-payments-challenges/

Bill gates criticizes the volatility of Bitcoin.

Although Bitcoin could simulate gold, the adoption process is much more difficult than gold/silver because gold had been already adopted thousand years before gold standard set up.

I still believe PoS + Hayek model will beat PoW’s gold standard philosophy.

Maybe I got lost somewhere…
…but as long as Peercoin stays a PoS/PoW hybrid the former doesn’t apply to Peercoin, right?
Peercoin is no predetermined supply PoS coin, but scarce.
I have more than once compared Peercoin to be the “true digital gold” because mining Peercoin is hard, but sustaining it is easy - just like gold an in difference to Bitcoin.

Sabreiib, Sunny seems to disagree with you below. He says that transactions fees can’t sustain Bitcoin’s security level. It might work if the mining generation amount was kept constant, but then that would weaken Bitcoin’s scarcity. It simply costs too much to sustain pure proof-of-work systems like Bitcoin long-term. He then says Primecoin is designed to do the job better and that it has a “reasonably good” scarcity property. Finally, he goes on to say that Peercoin would be the best candidate because it can maintain high security levels without reliance on transaction fees and also that it has a strong scarcity property. Just as MasterofDisaster said above, Peercoin is scarce. It’s hard to mine and easy to sustain, just like gold.

[quote=“Sentinelrv, post:1, topic:1921”]JustaBitofTime: Coolbeans94 wanted to know about Peercoin’s long term approach, he asks “Is its design more for long-term security and sustainability? How does that relate to Bitcoin’s longterm vision?(Coolbeans94)”

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM are designed to last. PPC is designed with energy efficiency, XPM is designed with energy multiuse. Bitcoin has a long term uncertainty as to whether transaction fees can sustain good enough level of security. Before that the main concern is how to balance transaction volume and transaction fee levels. Currently I get the feeling that bitcoin developers favor very low transaction fees and very high transaction volume, to be competitive against centralized systems (paypal, visa, mastercard etc) in terms of transaction volume, to the point of sacrificing decentralization. This also brings major uncertainties to bitcoin’s future.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. From my point of view, I think the cryptocurrency movement needs at least one ‘backbone’ currency, or more, that maintains high degree of decentralization, maintains high level of security, but not necessarily providing high volume of transactions. Thinking of savings accounts and gold coins, you don’t transact them at high velocity but they form the backbone of the monetary systems.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Pure proof-of-work systems such as bitcoin is not 100% suitable for this task. This is because transaction fee is not a reliable incentive to sustain network security. If the mining generation amount is kept constant (there have been several such attempts in altcoins) it would work better security-wise but then it would also significantly weaken the scarcity property of the currency. XPM’s inflation model is designed in such a way that it could serve as backbone currency better than bitcoin if needed, because it could maintain high security reliably for longer, with reasonably good scarcity property as well. Of course that’s only from architect’s point of view, whether or not it would be chosen by the market is a whole different matter.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. PPC is designed to serve even better as a backbone currency. The proof-of-stake technology in PPC is not only energy efficient; it also maintains high level of security without relying on transaction fee. Thus PPC could be safely designed with strong scarcity property yet serving well as backbone currency.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM use protocol enforced transaction fees, which reflects my preference that high transaction volume is discouraged in favor of serving as backbone currencies.[/quote]

Sabreiib, Sunny seems to disagree with you below. He says that transactions fees can’t sustain Bitcoin’s security level. It might work if the mining generation amount was kept constant, but then that would weaken Bitcoin’s scarcity. It simply costs too much to sustain pure proof-of-work systems like Bitcoin long-term. He then says Primecoin is designed to do the job better and that it has a “reasonably good” scarcity property. Finally, he goes on to say that Peercoin would be the best candidate because it can maintain high security levels without reliance on transaction fees and also that it has a strong scarcity property. Just as MasterofDisaster said above, Peercoin is scarce. It’s hard to mine and easy to sustain, just like gold.

[quote=“Sentinelrv, post:1, topic:1921”]JustaBitofTime: Coolbeans94 wanted to know about Peercoin’s long term approach, he asks “Is its design more for long-term security and sustainability? How does that relate to Bitcoin’s longterm vision?(Coolbeans94)”

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM are designed to last. PPC is designed with energy efficiency, XPM is designed with energy multiuse. Bitcoin has a long term uncertainty as to whether transaction fees can sustain good enough level of security. Before that the main concern is how to balance transaction volume and transaction fee levels. Currently I get the feeling that bitcoin developers favor very low transaction fees and very high transaction volume, to be competitive against centralized systems (paypal, visa, mastercard etc) in terms of transaction volume, to the point of sacrificing decentralization. This also brings major uncertainties to bitcoin’s future.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. From my point of view, I think the cryptocurrency movement needs at least one ‘backbone’ currency, or more, that maintains high degree of decentralization, maintains high level of security, but not necessarily providing high volume of transactions. Thinking of savings accounts and gold coins, you don’t transact them at high velocity but they form the backbone of the monetary systems.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Pure proof-of-work systems such as bitcoin is not 100% suitable for this task. This is because transaction fee is not a reliable incentive to sustain network security. If the mining generation amount is kept constant (there have been several such attempts in altcoins) it would work better security-wise but then it would also significantly weaken the scarcity property of the currency. XPM’s inflation model is designed in such a way that it could serve as backbone currency better than bitcoin if needed, because it could maintain high security reliably for longer, with reasonably good scarcity property as well. Of course that’s only from architect’s point of view, whether or not it would be chosen by the market is a whole different matter.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. PPC is designed to serve even better as a backbone currency. The proof-of-stake technology in PPC is not only energy efficient; it also maintains high level of security without relying on transaction fee. Thus PPC could be safely designed with strong scarcity property yet serving well as backbone currency.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM use protocol enforced transaction fees, which reflects my preference that high transaction volume is discouraged in favor of serving as backbone currencies.[/quote][/quote]

Sentinelrv, I agree with SK about XPM is better than BTC if XPM grows up, but disagree the PPC’s future.

  1. Scarcity. As we known, this is basic economics concept. Scarcity is “necessary condition but not sufficient condition” to being valuable. Fresh air is critical for us without it we die but fresh air is not scarce so it has no price. When we check the PPC design WITHIN its whitepaper, it is scarce, however, if we put the whole society as our scope, Can PPC stop its copy cats?

2)Reduction to absurdity. Let assume XPM has grown up now and each XPM equals to $250. What’s the copy cats response to XPM? They rush to github download XPM newest software and modify some minor factors and claim their YPM is as good as XPM, just like what 500 PoW altcoins did to BTC in 2013-14. However, the free market don’t buy it because the hash rate/mining rigs behinds XPM is far greater than counterfeits(YPM). Copy cats can copy open source software freely but can NOT point guns to every XPM miner’s head to force them shift hashrate from XPM to YPM network. Last two years, LTC and Doge tried to compete with BTC but their hash rate(security) never close to BTC, that’s the reason BTC keeping scarcity. Is there any PoW coin whose hash rate near to 300P now? None. The copy task is difficult, if not impossible.

For XPM, its unique computing and supply curve besides potential side chain may incentive XPM mining(GPU, perhaps future ASCI ) and grow up, XPM may rebuild “Gold Standard” in future.

Now let assume every PPC equals $250. Those copy cats rush to github and download SK’s latest PPC version and modify some factor of course including name, the counterfeit called “QQC”, they intentionally set a very high PoW Sha256 difficulty and give out one third of all QQC to people on internet and shout " let’s PoS mining", thanks for SK’s design, the QQC network is same power efficient,decentralized environmental friendly and SECURITY.

People would doubt what’s the difference between PPC and QQC? Why PPC =$250 while QQC=$1 since both have almost network? If PPC fails to keep scarce, $250 is impossible. Gold Standard is unreachable.

Cryptocurrency is open source, author anonymous, they must hook something in real work to prevent copy cats, BTC has mining rigs/hashrate, Nubits has Fiat/BTC in their system, but what does PPC have in real world? Peerbox? Personal Computer? No. Because copy cats have those too.

totally agree, I wouldn’t mind to see ppc at 10$ and btc at 20$ in a year time. from there the market will reset with ppc as the new center of the crypto universe.

[quote=“sabreiib, post:59, topic:3273”]Sentinelrv, I agree with SK about XPM is better than BTC if XPM grows up, but disagree the PPC’s future.

  1. Scarcity. As we known, this is basic economics concept. Scarcity is “necessary condition but not sufficient condition” to being valuable. Fresh air is critical for us without it we die but fresh air is not scarce so it has no price. When we check the PPC design WITHIN its whitepaper, it is scarce, however, if we put the whole society as our scope, Can PPC stop its copy cats?

2)Reduction to absurdity. Let assume XPM has grown up now and each XPM equals to $250. What’s the copy cats response to XPM? They rush to github download XPM newest software and modify some minor factors and claim their YPM is as good as XPM, just like what 500 PoW altcoins did to BTC in 2013-14. However, the free market don’t buy it because the hash rate/mining rigs behinds XPM is far greater than counterfeits(YPM). Copy cats can copy open source software freely but can NOT point guns to every XPM miner’s head to force them shift hashrate from XPM to YPM network. Last two years, LTC and Doge tried to compete with BTC but their hash rate(security) never close to BTC, that’s the reason BTC keeping scarcity. Is there any PoW coin whose hash rate near to 300P now? None. The copy task is difficult, if not impossible.

For XPM, its unique computing and supply curve besides potential side chain may incentive XPM mining(GPU, perhaps future ASCI ) and grow up, XPM may rebuild “Gold Standard” in future.

Now let assume every PPC equals $250. Those copy cats rush to github and download SK’s latest PPC version and modify some factor of course including name, the counterfeit called “QQC”, they intentionally set a very high PoW Sha256 difficulty and give out one third of all QQC to people on internet and shout " let’s PoS mining", thanks for SK’s design, the QQC network is same power efficient,decentralized environmental friendly and SECURITY.

People would doubt what’s the difference between PPC and QQC? Why PPC =$250 while QQC=$1 since both have almost network? If PPC fails to keep scarce, $250 is impossible. Gold Standard is unreachable.

Cryptocurrency is open source, author anonymous, they must hook something in real work to prevent copy cats, BTC has mining rigs/hashrate, Nubits has Fiat/BTC in their system, but what does PPC have in real world? Peerbox? Personal Computer? No. Because copy cats have those too.[/quote]

The way I’ve always looked at it is that every blockchain is independent of one another. For example, Bitcoin’s scarcity relies solely on the supply of Bitcoin and not any other crypto that also happens to use proof-of-work. The same would go for Peercoin. Peercoin’s scarcity relies solely on the supply of existing PPC, how many are being created through inflation and destroyed through transaction fees. Peercoin is Peercoin. Why should some other copycat proof-of-stake coin affect Peercoin’s scarcity? Am I wrong in thinking that copycat blockchains should have no effect on the scarcity of the originals as well as each other, since they’re all independent from one another?

[quote=“sabreiib, post:59, topic:3273”]Now let assume every PPC equals $250. Those copy cats rush to github and download SK’s latest PPC version and modify some factor of course including name, the counterfeit called “QQC”, they intentionally set a very high PoW Sha256 difficulty and give out one third of all QQC to people on internet and shout " let’s PoS mining", thanks for SK’s design, the QQC network is same power efficient,decentralized environmental friendly and SECURITY.

People would doubt what’s the difference between PPC and QQC? Why PPC =$250 while QQC=$1 since both have almost network? If PPC fails to keep scarce, $250 is impossible.[/quote]

good point. actually copy catting a POS is much easier than POW. all that matters is distribution. if someone is able to distribute a new coin to a wider network than the one already existing in the most capitalized POS it will easily take its place.

[quote=“sabreiib, post:59, topic:3273”][…]
Now let assume every PPC equals $250. Those copy cats rush to github and download SK’s latest PPC version and modify some factor of course including name, the counterfeit called “QQC”, they intentionally set a very high PoW Sha256 difficulty and give out one third of all QQC to people on internet and shout " let’s PoS mining", thanks for SK’s design, the QQC network is same power efficient,decentralized environmental friendly and SECURITY.

People would doubt what’s the difference between PPC and QQC? Why PPC =$250 while QQC=$1 since both have almost network? If PPC fails to keep scarce, $250 is impossible. Gold Standard is unreachable.

Cryptocurrency is open source, author anonymous, they must hook something in real work to prevent copy cats, BTC has mining rigs/hashrate, Nubits has Fiat/BTC in their system, but what does PPC have in real world? Peerbox? Personal Computer? No. Because copy cats have those too.[/quote]

You can make a PPC copy cat (there are already a lot of that), but it will NOT have the same security as Peercoin does have.
How will you handle the distribution of the copied coin?
With PoW like Peercoin does? How will you attract miners to that PoW process? This might look almost the same as for Bitcoin copy cats in terms of hash rate.
Without PoW? Like NXT did it?

Peercoin is scarce. The amount of PPC can’t be increased at will.
You need to mine or mint them.
With PoS you have an annual 1% increase, but assuming the total value of the Peercoin network stays the same, that increases the amount of Peercoins by 1%, but lowers the value per Peercoin by 1%.
So the only effective inflation comes from the PoW process that has a feedback loop adjusting the coinbase reward to the difficulty.
The more hash rate you put into the PoW process, the smaller the coinbase reward will be.
That’s why I say: Peercoin is scarce and stays scarce.
You can’t fight the scarcity of Peercoin by carbon copying the source code.
You don’t generate additional Peercoins (or equivalents) by copying Peercoin - you create something new.
This does not threaten Peercoin.

If you manage not only to create something new, but something different as well that is able to attract people, well, then you have earned it if that copy succeeds.
And that still doesn’t threaten Peercoin as I consider something different and successful an enrichment of the crypto coin world which will find its own niche just as Peercoin did.
…remember: Peercoin was forked from Bitcoin and altered in important aspects :wink:
That did never threaten Bitcoin, that doesn’t threaten Bitcoin, that won’t threaten Bitcoin.
Peercoin doesn’t create inflation to Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is threatened by flaws that are integrated into the Bitcoin concept.
Peercoin providing a solution for that flaws doesn’t threaten Bitcoin - it just offers a more feasible alternative :wink:
And that is only possible because it’s no simple carbon copy, but an improvement.
If a crypto coin arises that fits better in Peercoin’s niche (fair distribution, small block chain, secure and sustainable block chain protection, backbone asset for at least one DAC, etc) it deserves replacing Peercoin.
That would be a threat!
But you can’t just can’t generate a threat by copying the Peercoin code.

I very much welcome new ideas, development and competition.
Still I believe that Peercoin is and stays unique (and scarce).
I respect Litecoin, Primecoin, Dogecoin, Emercoin, Slimcoin, the Nu network, Bitshares, NXT and lots of other attempts for trying to create something new, something better, something important in some way. Some of those attempts face problems, have flaws or reasons to be criticized - some more serious than others. Some of them have in my opinion already failed, others might succeed, because they created something that is going to last.
I don’t see fundamental problems at Peercoin.
I don’t see a reason for Peercoin to fail.

This is focussed on Peercoin, but you already explained why Primecoin is here to stay :wink:

MoD, do you agree with my last post?

I disagree that all that matters is distribution. If all that mattered were distribution, Auroracoin would be popular at least at Iceland :wink:
Belief in the sustainability is important. Belief in demand is important (this is why scarcity is important: it limits the supply). And don’t forget the trust in the coin. Block chain solutions might limit trust that is required to execute transactions; in the coin itself (and each other) the parties need to trust!

How will you distribute a PoS coin better than with a hybrid PoW process? PoW might not be perfect, but it’s the best system I’m aware of for doing that. If you know a better distribution model, copy Peercoin and adjust the code accordingly. But that won’t be a simple copy. It will be an advancement. I’m not going into more detail here, because I already did in my last post.

How will you create confidence in a completely new coin? Peercoin has never fallen victim to pump&dump created by the developer(s) or the community; what traders do is not within the limits of community control.

How can a copy compete with Peercoin being here for close to 2.5 years now? Why would someone trust a copy more than Peercoin?
Do you know PayCoin? That danger comes with each new release of the newest, bestest and awsomestest coin (forgive me creating new superlatives :wink: )
That’s one of the benefits of established coins like Peercoin.

If you read this post, you know exactly how much I do :wink:

Quoting myself I’d say:

[quote=“masterOfDisaster, post:63, topic:3273”][…]…remember: Peercoin was forked from Bitcoin and altered in important aspects :wink:
That did never threaten Bitcoin, that doesn’t threaten Bitcoin, that won’t threaten Bitcoin.
Peercoin doesn’t create inflation to Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is threatened by flaws that are integrated into the Bitcoin concept.
Peercoin providing a solution for that flaws doesn’t threaten Bitcoin - it just offers a more feasible alternative :wink:
And that is only possible because it’s no simple carbon copy, but an improvement.[…][/quote]

auroracoin was a pow, that’s the problem.

ok let’s make a few examples.

bitcoin right now has, according to my estimates, about 250k users. here comes linkedin, they silently buy 10m litecoin (the price will shoot up let’s say to 0.02 btc while many people wonder what’s happening to that crappy coin) and then distribute them to their users, let’s say 100m people, or 400 times as much as btc distribution. on the announcement litecoin will shoot even further to 0.25 btc, its theoretical value, or even higher.

now what’s likely to happen? well, I believe that since btc security provided by its mining it’s way higher than ltc, people will start selling ltc to get btc. yes ltc mining will increase rapidly, but most likely not enough to match btc’s hashrate and security. so slowly ltc will come back down to a reasonable price. also, due to the switching from ltc to btc by most of those 100m people, btc will be much better distributed, even to the point of overtaking ltc new distribution.

after a few weeks facebook creates a new coin, facecoin, a copycat of btc and distribute it even to a wider user base, 1B people. lots of mining will swiftly switch from btc to facecoin as the price of the new coin will make it hugely profitable, but this won’t last long. people will most likely start selling facecoin for bitcoin (while the miners are selling for fiat) and we will end up exactly as before.

now, let’s say 2 years from now btc is dead and ppc has taken its place with about the same price and distribution btc has now. repeat the two stages. first linkedin adopt an existing copycat of ppc called linkcoin and distribute it to 100m people. istantly it will be 400 times more secure than ppc and even more fairly distributed. so it will takes its place. when facebook creates its facecoin, the same happens. facecoin will replace linkcoin because it has even a wider user base and a fairer distribution. and then, I don’t know but nobody today has more network than facebook (maybe some chinese social network?), in any case I believe the copycat process will end up with a winning POS that had the widest and fairest distribution.

Can we continue the discussion here please:
http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=3809.new#new

Seeing this every morning I check the Forum is disgusting:

Or even better, stop the discussion and focus on doing actual work for Peercoin/Primecoin. I don’t have time for that myself unfortunately.

Thread closed.

[quote=“Ötzi, post:68, topic:3273”]Can we continue the discussion here please:

Seeing this every morning I check the Forum is disgusting:
[…]
Or even better, stop the discussion and focus on doing actual work for Peercoin/Primecoin. I don’t have time for that myself unfortunately.[/quote]
I’m deeply sorry that you find no merit in discussing about Peercoin and Primecoin and why they have a place in this world.
Calling something disgusting that is valuable especially for those new to the Peercoin and Primecoin idea is beyond my understanding.
And I don’t understand what would be the benefit from continuing the discussion in a new thread as well.
I agree that doing actual work for PPC/XPM is important.
In difference to you I consider discussion actual work and being important.

nope :wink:

[quote=“Ötzi, post:68, topic:3273”]Can we continue the discussion here please:
http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=3809.new#new

Seeing this every morning I check the Forum is disgusting:

Or even better, stop the discussion and focus on doing actual work for Peercoin/Primecoin. I don’t have time for that myself unfortunately.

Thread closed.[/quote]

Are you drunk?

There’s no need to be rude. When posting the initial reply to Ötzi, I hadn’t even visited the new thread.
Now that I’ve done it, I think I can grasp the intention: to discuss in a more optimistic way.

While that would be nice and taste sweeter, I think this is not necessary.
This community is mature enough to ask questions even if they seem to be ugly ones and discuss those topics focussed on facts rather than starting to insult each other.

Please let us keep this course!

Without questioning important things, Peercoin wouldn’t have been created!
It’s the mentality of asking radical questions and trying to answer them, that not only lead to the creation of Peercoin, but to all important things that have been created based on Peercoin!
We wouldn’t have Peershares or the Nu network if Peercoin could have solved all problems.
We need controversial discussion - as long as this discussion is meant to strive for something better.

Hi all! :slight_smile:

Very sorry - I didn’t want to be rude. I just felt that the title of this thread ‘Recheck our belief on PPC/XPM’ sounds like the last members of a small religious community reassuring each other about their “belief”. I am not a native English speaker, maybe it doesn’t really sound that negative to native English speakers.
When this title is all over the place in the “Recent posts” section, it can put off newbies, who read about Peercoin for the first time. So that’s why I wanted you to continue the discussions in a new thread.

This is different from Bitcointalk, where such a title wouldn’t matter. Over there it would just be a small drop in an ocean of simultaneous discussions.

Ötzi