Open transactions

Hope SK add OT as an important target.

+1

Yes, this is really important. Peercoin + OT = Peercoin as a backbone currency. It finally makes sense.

How to pay notary fees (collected by notary servers) in open transactions?
What is the defference between notary fees in open transactions and 0.01 PPC destroyed in blockchain transactions?

I wanted to link to this thread just so it doesn’t get lost. http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=3222.0

[quote=“lclc”]Hi Peercoiners

Someone posted a link to this topic in our Open Transactions forum, so I though I have to check it out.

As you maybe know, we are coin-agnostic, and for obvious reasons, we will implement voting pools with Bitcoin first.
But I have to say your argument why POS makes is better with OT voting pools than POW makes sense to me. I don’t know enough about Peercoin, but I’ll read into it.

I don’t think for Monetas implementing Peercoin will be a high priority in the near future, but I’m sure our people could help you if you have questions.
Please join our ##voting-pools IRC channel on freenode once you start this project.

I’ve already been in contact with one guy of your community and I’ll try to provide you updates regarding our progress on the protocol spec etc. as good as possible.

If you want to meet in RL, easiest is if you come to Zug, Switzerland :wink:

I’ll try to answer your questions regarding OT voting pools here.

(I work for Monetas, but I’m only here because of personal interested and I’m not in a position to support something officially. But you have my spare-time community work support ;)).[/quote]

Hi lclc, I imagine you must have read this quote from my email to Sunny King…

Peercoin has a 0.01 PPC/kb fee to help counter blockchain bloat and dust transactions. It’s the reason why our blockchain is around 2 years old and still only around 300 MB. Our developer Sunny King says this makes Peercoin a strong backbone currency.

You said you wanted to do some research on Peercoin, so here are the interviews we have with Sunny King. You should read the first two, particularly #2, where he talks about the reasons why he designed Peercoin the way he did. He has an extremely long-term view on cryptos. We also recently produced this 38 minute video which goes over many of the main topics. Here is a sample from the 2nd interview relating to the idea of Peercoin as a backbone cryptocurrency…

[quote=“Sentinelrv, post:1, topic:1921”]JustaBitofTime: Coolbeans94 wanted to know about Peercoin’s long term approach, he asks “27. Is its design more for long-term security and sustainability? How does that relate to Bitcoin’s longterm vision?(Coolbeans94)”

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM are designed to last. PPC is designed with energy efficiency, XPM is designed with energy multiuse. Bitcoin has a long term uncertainty as to whether transaction fees can sustain good enough level of security. Before that the main concern is how to balance transaction volume and transaction fee levels. Currently I get the feeling that bitcoin developers favor very low transaction fees and very high transaction volume, to be competitive against centralized systems (paypal, visa, mastercard etc) in terms of transaction volume, to the point of sacrificing decentralization. This also brings major uncertainties to bitcoin’s future.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. From my point of view, I think the cryptocurrency movement needs at least one ‘backbone’ currency, or more, that maintains high degree of decentralization, maintains high level of security, but not necessarily providing high volume of transactions. Thinking of savings accounts and gold coins, you don’t transact them at high velocity but they form the backbone of the monetary systems.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Pure proof-of-work systems such as bitcoin is not 100% suitable for this task. This is because transaction fee is not a reliable incentive to sustain network security. If the mining generation amount is kept constant (there have been several such attempts in altcoins) it would work better security-wise but then it would also significantly weaken the scarcity property of the currency. XPM’s inflation model is designed in such a way that it could serve as backbone currency better than bitcoin if needed, because it could maintain high security reliably for longer, with reasonably good scarcity property as well. Of course that’s only from architect’s point of view, whether or not it would be chosen by the market is a whole different matter.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. PPC is designed to serve even better as a backbone currency. The proof-of-stake technology in PPC is not only energy efficient; it also maintains high level of security without relying on transaction fee. Thus PPC could be safely designed with strong scarcity property yet serving well as backbone currency.

Sunny King: @Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM use protocol enforced transaction fees, which reflects my preference that high transaction volume is discouraged in favor of serving as backbone currencies.

JustaBitofTime: Along those lines the community wanted to know "“If the tax fees are to remain fixed at 0.01 and Peercoin becomes widely adopted, (Thus a sharp rise in value) the fees could become too much for microtransactions. What would happen in this case? What solutions do you imagine to get around the microtransaction issue?”

Sunny King: @transaction fees: Right now if we are talking about micropayments in the US$1 range, both PPC and XPM still handle them with much lower overhead than credit card network. In the long term micropayments should be provided by centralized providers, or a less decentralized network optimized for high capacity transaction processing.

Sunny King: @transaction fees: On the other hand there is no promise that minimum transaction fee wouldn’t be adjusted. If processing capacity of personal computers continues to advance at the current pace, both max block size and minimum transaction fee could very well be adjusted at some point. However I do take a very cautious approach to adjusting transaction fees, as opposed to bitcoin devs. The impact to the fitness of the currency as a backbone currency is of great concerns to me.[/quote]

This interview is almost a year old and Peercoin itself was in the design phase for a while. As you can see, Sunny was already talking about off-chain transaction processing networks as providing the ultimate solution for micro-transactions, rather than relying on blockchains to do everything. Reasons like this are why many of us believe OT and PPC are right for each other and we’d love to have the chance to communicate this to the founders of Monetas.

Now, I understand Monetas is coin-agnostic and that’s a great position to take considering all the potential coins that might or might not work out in the end. Even though this is the case, I don’t any of us are asking for special treatment over other coins. We mainly want to communicate these ideas to Chris and Johann, so they know that the people behind Peercoin are serious when it comes to solving problems that Bitcoin has, unlike many of the other cryptos out there that were created with no long-term vision.

My question is if they’d be interested in meeting with our developer Sunny King in our chat room for an interview with him and our community. I understand they’re very busy people, so I don’t know if something like this would be possible. I think it would be a good idea though if they could stop by and answer some questions from a community interested in OT and share ideas with its developer, especially when they have similar ideas and long-term views. Do you know if they would be open to doing something like this or how I might contact them directly? I’ve emailed Sunny King to find out if he’d be interested as well.

Very interesting, thanks! Maybe I can find some Peercoin experts in my local community (Zurich, Zug) ?

I think our values are very much the same. We believe what we are building, as a community, (not only OT, but the whole crypto thing) is here to stay and will change the world, giving more freedom to the people, bringing us into a new age of progress and free thinking, living people.

I will talk to Chris, but as you said they are both very busy. Are there some “official” people from the Peercoin community at Bitcoin conferences? Both, Johann and Chris attend a lot of conferences, so if you want to speak to them that would be a good place.

Regarding questions from the community, I think I will be able to answer most technical questions with the help of my colleagues.
For other questions, you maybe could collect them and send them to me, and we can ask them to answer it.
But again, I’m here for personal interest and I’m not in a position to give any promises.
If you want to contact them directly, you can find their email addresses on the Monetas website.

Edit: Also see Chris answer regarding implementing Peercoin in OT voting pools: http://opentransactions.org/forum/index.php?topic=3818.msg4402#msg4402

I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Peercoin community, but it might be good to know that much work being done here is being financed by http://peer4commit.com

A bounty (700 peercoins) was created for OT integration. It was canceled, because it was to early: Cryptoblog - notícias sobre bitcoin e criptomoedas! but it will be revived once its time for it again.

[quote=“lclc, post:63, topic:2002”]Very interesting, thanks! Maybe I can find some Peercoin experts in my local community (Zurich, Zug) ?

I think our values are very much the same. We believe what we are building, as a community, (not only OT, but the whole crypto thing) is here to stay and will change the world, giving more freedom to the people, bringing us into a new age of progress and free thinking, living people.

I will talk to Chris, but as you said they are both very busy. Are there some “official” people from the Peercoin community at Bitcoin conferences? Both, Johann and Chris attend a lot of conferences, so if you want to speak to them that would be a good place.

Regarding questions from the community, I think I will be able to answer most technical questions with the help of my colleagues.
For other questions, you maybe could collect them and send them to me, and we can ask them to answer it.
But again, I’m here for personal interest and I’m not in a position to give any promises.
If you want to contact them directly, you can find their email addresses on the Monetas website.

Edit: Also see Chris answer regarding implementing Peercoin in OT voting pools: http://opentransactions.org/forum/index.php?topic=3818.msg4402#msg4402[/quote]

Thanks, I posted my response on your forum as well because I wanted Chris to see the information.

About Peercoin experts, Sunny has been the only developer for a long time, but he recently took another one of our members (Sigmike) into the core Peercoin development team. He’s very careful about who he selects to include on the team. I imagine he took so long to add more developers because he wanted to allow time for people to really understand the coin and the source code behind it.

Sunny King himself is similar to Satoshi. He’s completely anonymous. Nobody here really knows who he is. I believe Sigmike may be public though. There are other people here that know a lot about Peercoin, but I’m not sure if any are in your area. We are a small community for now, but focused on big things. I think most of the drama stays away from us because we’re mostly focused on long-term solutions, rather than building a bunch of features. We have a lot of big time backers though, as you can see from the donations on Peer4commit.

Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ve really reached the stage where we’re going to conferences yet to present ourselves. Sunny and Sigmike are currently working on major things that Peercoin needs, such as cold-locked minting so we achieve higher minting participation and security levels, the phasing out of centralized checkpoints and the possible introduction of sidechains. I don’t think we’re ready yet for the big time until we work through some of these issues.

Good video! Watched it now.

What I find very interesting about Peercoin is that the members of the voting-pools will be able to mint those coins, so they gain some profit from it (which they of course also can share with the actual owners if they want to). This gives a big incentive for every exchange / pool member to provide Peercoin. Very cool.

I’ve build Peercoin from Github, seems to work so far :wink:

@lclc

Welcome to the forum :slight_smile:

PPC and OT will be the perfect symbiosis. I would love to see it happen :smiley:

[quote=“lclc, post:66, topic:2002”]Good video! Watched it now.

What I find very interesting about Peercoin is that the members of the voting-pools will be able to mint those coins, so they gain some profit from it (which they of course also can share with the actual owners if they want to). This gives a big incentive for every exchange / pool member to provide Peercoin. Very cool.

I’ve build Peercoin from Github, seems to work so far ;)[/quote]

Yes, voting pool can mine PPC! So if voting pools proceed PPC transaction, servers can be completely free for users while users give up 1% annual interest of their deposite. The more frequently they trade, the less cost every time! So PPC makes OT become zero fee, and voting pool servers help PPC with POS mining(security) while both OT users and service providers are satisfied. :slight_smile:

I’ve watched a Monetas video where Gevers said OT transaction fee is 1/1000000 of BTC(50$ each, including whole system mining cost or 10cents transaction fee), and process ability is 1000 times of BTC(10 times /sec). Are these numbers correct? Is OT capable of 10000 transactions per second? That will outperform all of blockchain based markets!

Thanks sandakersmann :slight_smile:

Or the other way around: Holdign PPC coin in a voting-pool OT account would be the only ones that give you a interest (if the pool pays it to you). Also cool :slight_smile:

The transaction fee is up to the server operators, but since a transaction has nearly no cost for them it will be very cheap. Or even free, but then that’s probably not a very professional server operator, or he only does PPC transactions, where he gets the interest :wink:

Regarding the numbers of transactions per second, I don’t think yet 10000/s, but we are working on improving it heavily. That also depends on your hardware, but since we plan to switch to the same hashing and signing algorithm Bitcoin uses, you might be able to use some mining ASICS to make a OT server even faster (just an idea, don’t know if possible).
Anyway, I guess it will take some time until we get to the day where one transaction-server operator has 10000 transactions per second :wink:

lclc, hope you and sunny king or sigmike talk to each other to implement the voting pool POS mining.

Another question, odom said they began to develop OT as early as Jan. 2010, and they have no IPO or crowd funding.

So what kind of investors do you have? Are the investors from USA or Switzerland or all over the world?

It’s a bit early for that, since we don’t have the protocol specs yet.
But the pre-requirements will be at least support for multi-sig and the payment protocol:
http://opentransactions.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cryptocurrency_wallet_API
(This will get updated)

[quote=“sabreiib, post:70, topic:2002”]Another question, odom said they began to develop OT as early as Jan. 2010, and they have no IPO or crowd funding.

So what kind of investors do you have? Are the investors from USA or Switzerland or all over the world?[/quote]

The beginning of OT and Monetas are two different stories. Chris started OT without the plan of starting a company. Monetas was started much later.
I don’t know who our investors are, expect a few, and I don’t think I’m allowed to talk about it. But Johann picks our investors like we pick the employees, they have to match our values.
I’ve been to a few Bitcoin conferences and I think finding money for a good idea is not a problem, there are soo many investors walking around there.

It’s a bit early for that, since we don’t have the protocol specs yet.
But the pre-requirements will be at least support for multi-sig and the payment protocol:
http://opentransactions.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cryptocurrency_wallet_API
(This will get updated)

[quote=“sabreiib, post:70, topic:2002”]Another question, odom said they began to develop OT as early as Jan. 2010, and they have no IPO or crowd funding.

So what kind of investors do you have? Are the investors from USA or Switzerland or all over the world?[/quote]

The beginning of OT and Monetas are two different stories. Chris started OT without the plan of starting a company. Monetas was started much later.
I don’t know who our investors are, expect a few, and I don’t think I’m allowed to talk about it. But Johann picks our investors like we pick the employees, they have to match our values.
I’ve been to a few Bitcoin conferences and I think finding money for a good idea is not a problem, there are soo many investors walking around there.[/quote]

In a video, Johann said they have several investors but I lost the link, anyway, I believe Monetas will go on without running out of capital.

Just wait for good news from you and PPC teams. :slight_smile:

There is quite a few Peercoiners in Switzerland, you can check our Peercoin nodes maps here: http://cryptocities.appspot.com/

I guess the one in Zug city is you :slight_smile:

Cheers

Oh, cool :slight_smile:
And that’s me yes ;D

Maybe I’ll meet a few Peercoiners at the Bitcoin Meetup in Zurich.

FYI:

[17:26] lclc: I'm going to write two BIPs similar to BIP44 to document the wallet format for voting pool wallets. [17:27] Then the other coins can start implementing them

:slight_smile:

[quote=“lclc, post:75, topic:2002”]FYI:

[17:26] lclc: I'm going to write two BIPs similar to BIP44 to document the wallet format for voting pool wallets. [17:27] Then the other coins can start implementing them

:)[/quote]

Alright! Very nice to see things progressing.