Informal Discussion -- "How does the minting process work?"


#21

Yes, if you can guess the difficulty.[/quote]

That’s exactly what does the little findstake tool by kac-: https://github.com/kac-/umint/blob/master/tools/findstake/find.go

thehuntergames implemented a nice html/javascript version of it: https://github.com/jointhepartypooper/FindstakeJS


#22

Query about minting.

Using Peerunity has really crystallized a question I had.

Is there a reason, technically, that you can’t “merge” coins at the same address when they reach maximum maturity? That is, if I have 1 coin in address X, and 100 coins come into address X later, those 100 coins are much more likely to mint than the 1 coin. And from a probability standpoint, the 1 coin will never mint, though the 100 coins will. So it seems like anyone who makes smaller transactions will never be able to mint, even when those small transactions reach maximum maturity?

The only solution within the current system that I see is to make a new transactions of all coins into one address periodically. This has some clear drawbacks though. Thoughts?


#23

[quote=“Blackbird, post:22, topic:2189”]Query about minting.

Using Peerunity has really crystallized a question I had.

Is there a reason, technically, that you can’t “merge” coins at the same address when they reach maximum maturity? That is, if I have 1 coin in address X, and 100 coins come into address X later, those 100 coins are much more likely to mint than the 1 coin. And from a probability standpoint, the 1 coin will never mint, though the 100 coins will. So it seems like anyone who makes smaller transactions will never be able to mint, even when those small transactions reach maximum maturity?

The only solution within the current system that I see is to make a new transactions of all coins into one address periodically. This has some clear drawbacks though. Thoughts?[/quote]

when minting your transactions get split anyway, so you end up with small transactions which are minting


#24

[quote=“irritant, post:23, topic:2189”][quote=“Blackbird, post:22, topic:2189”]Query about minting.

Using Peerunity has really crystallized a question I had.

Is there a reason, technically, that you can’t “merge” coins at the same address when they reach maximum maturity? That is, if I have 1 coin in address X, and 100 coins come into address X later, those 100 coins are much more likely to mint than the 1 coin. And from a probability standpoint, the 1 coin will never mint, though the 100 coins will. So it seems like anyone who makes smaller transactions will never be able to mint, even when those small transactions reach maximum maturity?

The only solution within the current system that I see is to make a new transactions of all coins into one address periodically. This has some clear drawbacks though. Thoughts?[/quote]

when minting your transactions get split anyway, so you end up with small transactions which are minting[/quote]

So, what does one do with a very small transaction? If I have 1 PPC in a transaction, what should I do?


#25

I’m facing the same situation, and I’m just waiting to have enough coins to merge them. You should either merge that 1PPC to a bigger transaction that just minted (so you don’t loose too many coindays) or just wait to have more of these 1 PPC. Unfortunately and in any case, that 1 PPC won’t bring you enough coindays to be able to mint at the current PoS diff.


#26

I’m facing the same situation, and I’m just waiting to have enough coins to merge them. You should either merge that 1PPC to a bigger transaction that just minted (so you don’t loose too many coindays) or just wait to have more of these 1 PPC. Unfortunately and in any case, that 1 PPC won’t bring you enough coindays to be able to mint at the current PoS diff.[/quote]

What then, is the appropriate number of coins one should have before merging at present difficulties?


#27

http://poscalculator.peercointalk.org/

I’d say somewhere around 500 is ok if you can’t have more than that. Otherwise if you can, I would advise not to have less than 3,500 coins per chunk. Because after 90 days you stop earning coindays, which also means you’ll max out your minting reward… So better keep a 15 days window during which you have at least 90% chances to mint before these 90 days in my opinion.


#28

[quote=“Thireus, post:27, topic:2189”]http://poscalculator.peercointalk.org/

I’d say somewhere around 500 is ok if you can’t have more than that. Otherwise if you can, I would advise not to have less than 3,500 coins per chunk. Because after 90 days you stop earning coindays, which also means you’ll max out your minting reward… So better keep a 15 days window during which you have at least 90% chances to mint before these 90 days in my opinion.[/quote]

Hmm.

I’m trying to understand the system better, because I do legal research on crytpocurrencies. I realized, after waiting for a couple months for minting to occur, that all my small transactions (3-4 PPC) won’t ever mint. I just put em together in a larger chunk, hoping it’ll mint now. I suppose I’ll see what happens.


#29

Just use the website I’ve liked to calculate your minting probability per amount of coins that you have for a given transaction. And you’ll see for yourself how long you have to stay connected to the network for minting to occur (yes, yes, connected to the network and with an unlocked wallet h24 with 8 connections minimum!)

Basically with 50 PPC in one transaction, you have 21.95% chances to mint if you keep your wallet unlocked within 90 days (which is also the maximum coinage you’ll reach). So… about 1 chance out of 5 that your 50 PPC mint within 90 days…

So, just increase that amount of coins up to a decent amount and wait… You can use that tool to calculate when exactly your TXs are going to stake: https://peercoinfindstakedata.divshot.io/, so it will avoid keeping your wallet unlocked h24.


#30

[quote=“Thireus, post:29, topic:2189”]Just use the website I’ve liked to calculate your minting probability per amount of coins that you have for a given transaction. And you’ll see for yourself how long you have to stay connected to the network for minting to occur (yes, yes, connected to the network and with an unlocked wallet h24 with 8 connections minimum!)

Basically with 50 PPC in one transaction, you have 21.95% chances to mint if you keep your wallet unlocked within 90 days (which is also the maximum coinage you’ll reach). So… about 1 chance out of 5 that your 50 PPC mint within 90 days…

So, just increase that amount of coins up to a decent amount and wait… You can use that tool to calculate when exactly your TXs are going to stake: https://peercoinfindstakedata.divshot.io/, so it will avoid keeping your wallet unlocked h24.[/quote]

Thanks! I appreciate it!

Before you posted those links, I arbitrarily put 60 PPC into one address, so I’ll play around with that for now. 20-25% chance seems good enough.

Thanks for the help!


#31

Good news: this isn’t true. The 90 days just applies toward the chance of minting, not toward the reward amount. You’ll always earn a 1% annualized reward when you mint. For example, if your transaction (also called an “unspent output” or “utxo”) sits for 2 years, and then mints, then it will grow by 2%.


#32

Good news: this isn’t true. The 90 days just applies toward the chance of minting, not toward the reward amount. You’ll always earn a 1% annualized reward when you mint. For example, if your transaction (also called an “unspent output” or “utxo”) sits for 2 years, and then mints, then it will grow by 2%.[/quote]

Aha. So it is not quite so more beneficial than this person originally said to have large PPC amount in one address.


#33

First remember that minting is unspent output (utxo) based, not address based.

A utxo’s ability to mint in a unit of time maxes out at 90 days. But if you have more coins in the utxo, the ability is proportionally bigger. So having more PPCs in a utxo still helps.

If one utxo in an address finds a block, your wallet will mop up all small utxos in the same address and use them to form the minting output (with a max). This helps to collect small changes and dust in your wallet. So it helps to put your little pieces in an address that has a big chunk of utxo. You might lose privacy in doing so because the blockchain will show that all these pieces belong to the same person.

I remember kac- or mably or peerchemist proved that you can merge small changes and dusts to a found stake from a different address actually. It needs some work.

If the minting output is too big (currently 100 PPC ish) the output will be split to two so that they can mint separately, adding security to the network.


#34

[quote=“mhps, post:33, topic:2189”]First remember that minting is unspent output (utxo) based, not address based.

A utxo’s ability to mint in a unit of time maxes out at 90 days. But if you have more coins in the utxo, the ability is proportionally bigger. So having more PPCs in a utxo still helps.

If one utxo in an address finds a block, your wallet will mop up all small utxos in the same address and use them to form the minting output (with a max). This helps to collect small changes and dust in your wallet. So it helps to put your little pieces in an address that has a big chunk of utxo. You might lose privacy in doing so because the blockchain will show that all these pieces belong to the same person.

I remember kac- or mably or peerchemist proved that you can merge small changes and dusts to a found stake from a different address actually. It needs some work.

If the minting output is too big (currently 100 PPC ish) the output will be split to two so that they can mint separately, adding security to the network.[/quote]

Aha.

So, work with me here. If I say, put 50 PPC into an address on day 0. And between Day 0 and Day 90, I also add some other smaller chunks of PPC, say 3-4 PPC. If on Day 120, the 50 PPC mints, and there’s 5 PPC in that address that was added on Day 30, that 5 PPC will also mint? Am I correct in that?

So for “smaller” minters, the key isn’t necessarily to merge all your PPC into one transaction in one address, but to have at least one transaction in one address that’s large enough to mint, with smaller transactions permitted in the same address.


#35

What, what? :slight_smile:

Thank you Chronos, that was quite a misconception that I had. You’re right.

The reward is then calculated based on the totally aggregated coin age since the last transaction: (code simplified, see main.cpp) nCoinAge = SUM( nValueIn * (nTime - txPrev.nTime) ) / COIN / (24 * 60 * 60); int64 nSubsidy = nCoinAge * 33 / ( 365 * 33 + 8 ) * CENT;

So, merging coins is actually not a good idea, because you just burn 3-4 coindays (the days when your previous minting transaction is locked awaiting for confirmations)… it just helps receiving your reward faster because you have more chances to mint…

Using findstakejs you can calculate when your coins are going to stake.

Let’s all mint with chunks of 1 PPC! :smiley:


#36

[member=29308]Chronos[/member], wait… if the reward is not maxed out over time, why should I keep minting h24? Why not wait 1 year or 2 years before collecting my reward with a single PoS block? Just like this guy: P9WKcj9PSjoX7UYV6vCQPkxGdL98w3kcJ4

I’m just a big shocked here, I see no incentive to keep the blockchain secure… There is no incentive to keep minting! :s (On top of that the PoS reward is not even based on the diff… but is always 1%)

The only incentive I see is just to collect the reward more often instead of all at once with a single PoS block later… but that’s not even an incentive that’s also a constraint because we need keep our wallet unlocked for this purpose!


#37

“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn’t … pays it.”
― Albert Einstein

if you start with 100 and you stake having waited a year you get 101
if you start with 100 and you stake having waited 2 years you get 102

but if you stake each year once the formula becomes
100*(1.01)^years


#38

Right! But that’s 1% of 1% that you earn (minting your reward), that’s quite a few. :confused:

Well, at least this is a small incentive. Thanks thehuntergames I almost had a heart attack. :slight_smile:


#39

Don’t underestimate the power of compound interest

endresult = Principle * (1+0.01/stakes_per_year)^(stakes_per_year * number_of_years)

e.g.
Starting with 1000 ppc and staking quarterly for 5 years you get 1051.205503 ppc

That’s 5.1% after 5 years


#40

Indeed, 0.1% more. This is mathematically correct, but you’re assuming you don’t need/want to merge your rewards (because these 2.5 PPC that you receive every 3 months only have 6% chance to mint within a year).

But I agree on the principle, and people who have a huge amount of coins, such as P9WKcj9PSjoX7UYV6vCQPkxGdL98w3kcJ4 have a bigger incentive to mint h24 (because of the compound interest and because they are not impacted by their reward’s probability to mint) than small miners who are holding 1,000 PPC.