Fixed Transaction Fee (0.01 PPC/kb) Debate Thread

[quote=“kactech, post:60, topic:1068”]To Da M00n! https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
Christmas 2014 best gift - collection of 6 blue-rays with BTC blockchain - join decentralized payment system right now! Signed by Ben B.
I think whole discussion is pointless, until fee is under $1 it isn’t worth even considering any changes. Then, maybe some adjustments but locked in not near future(blockchain year or more). If there will be changes in this part of protocol till 2015 - I’ll leave this coin.
You want stable currency… and changes in ‘contract’ asap, I don’t get it. Maybe lets concentrate on off-chain, open source, transparent payments processor with multisig warranties that can be used by local communities, lets show what p2p is :slight_smile:
I’ve jumped in @~$6/ppc and my sleep will be good till any hardforks on horizon.[/quote]

+1

Again, the reason Peercoin is such a big deal is due to its energy efficiency and increased security, long-term. There is a very real need for a backbone currency.

All Proof-of-Work coins like Bitcoin/Litecoin et al security relies on never ending energy consumption. Peercoin solves this problem and the fixed transaction fee is part of this process. As time goes on, PoW becomes less and less energy efficient, more energy dependent to keep the high value network secure, more centralized. Peercoin isn’t designed for merchants to process small transactions with, it is like a place to keep large amounts of money safe, and decentralized without fear of the network going down do 51% attacks, etc. As time goes on the risk of 51% will increase for all these PoW coins, not decrease. The risk will never go away. Peercoin is needed as a backup, a place to park your money on a safer network. Peercoin doesn’t need transactions/merchants. It is a lot like Gold. Gold isn’t accepted by merchants but it has value. Peercoin is like the gold standard for cryptos. There is a very real need for a reserve currency or backbone currency. Peercoin is the solution and it will become more evident as time goes on. Paying the .01 fee is totally worth it. Peercoin is like an insurance policy. Paying the fee is just like paying the policy premium for insurance to protect your assets. Peercoin is insurance to protect your money. Just like buying insurance is not for the average person who only has $500 to protect, but if you own your own house, paying $1,000 a year to protect it from catastrophic loss is worth it. Insurance is not worth if for people who do not have assets to protect, however is very much worth is for people who do have assets. There is a great demand out there to offer protection/insurance for money, and Peercoin serves to provide this service well. Yes, the .01 transaction fee may be too high for some people, but anyone who has any significant value in cryptos, it is like paying nothing. The value Peercoin adds is high. A lot of people are not aware of the risks they take by concentrating their wealth in Bitcoin, Litecoin et al. In my opinion, holding millions of $$ worth in Bitcoin or Litecoin et al is extremely unwise. Long-term, these currencies will become less and less secure because they rely on energy, and energy can be centrally controlled, so these currencies should only be used for the small transactions. On the other hand, Peercoin is designed much better as a long-term safe-haven.

Bitcoin & Litecoin et al (you name it) will suffer from an endless cycle of perpetually needing more and more and MORE mining gear to keep it going…which means more and more energy to keep it going. In a few years time this is going to be a huge deal. This process is really turning into a beast that can only end badly…and it is never going to end. The worst part about this is that Proof-of-Work has basically turned into Proof-of-Electricity. This is going to be a serious energy problem…and only the places with cheap electricity will be able to compete…this will force energy prices perpetually higher and higher.

With Peercoin, this is completely unnecessary, and not a problem, & the .01 fee is well worth it. Peercoin is environmentally sustainable, and shows that Bitcoin, Litecoin et al is just an inefficient coin, a complete waste of money, and resources. I am not against Bitcoin, Litecoin et al, but I am looking objectively, and I am willing to admit it is not perfect. Peercoin is much more tailored to become a world reserve currency.

Peercoin has value because it is a good mathematical construct; Peercoin is energy efficient and is a cost effective way of storing wealth. It is a unit of account, and limited supply. The problem with Gold is it has high maintenance costs and storage costs. Try storing a $100 million dollars worth of Gold in your house. With Peercoin you can do it on a flash drive. There is a lot of manipulation with Gold, and Fiat. With Peercoins, you trade just Peercoins, and it is not subject to manipulations or surprises. Real mining physical gold and precious metals it is bad for our environment. We are just destroying our planet by using up natural resources.

Peercoin is like an insurance policy, and the .01 fee is the insurance premium. At this point, if you wanted to secure (i.e. insure) $100,000 it only costs a few cents to do the transaction, this is next to nothing! The fee is not high at all right now, if this is what you are using Peercoin for. If you treat Peercoin as an insurance policy to protect your wealth it is super cheap.

I don’t believe our goal should be about having everyone and his brother and every store using Peercoin. Peercoin is like Gold. Not everyone and his brother and every store uses Gold either, but it has merit.

Peercoin is not a micro-currency, it is a cryptocommodity. I could see possible justification for lowering the fee if it becomes higher than about $5 USD, but that would mean the price of Peercoin at $500 ea. I’d say, put the issue to rest for now, and let’s talk about it some more once we are above $100 per coin.

Thanks to this discussion, I start to see the reasons why the fixed transaction fee might be a good idea. Until only running the wallet requires tens and later probably hundreds or thousands of GB of disc space, it really looks like trouble.

But I think lot of people invest into cryptocurrencies because they think some of them have the potential of (almost) replacing the money in a safe way, not controlled by governments. Of course, the proof of stake is IMHO absolutely necessary, because the PoW is very expensive and it may soon have problems. But if there will be some currency, that will both be cheap (low energy cost thanks to the proof of stake + some solution to gigantic blockchain problem), there will be no division to backbone currency and microtransaction currency. It will be the “winner takes all” situation. If it will be sustainable, such currency will be attractive exactly because everybody uses it to make transactions, businesses accept it and it presents infrastructure that is hard to replace. People will be less concerned it will suddenly get abandoned. This is important before you pour millions into it.

Btw. I do not think that the transaction fee should be changed right now, but unless there is a consensus that it will adapt to PPC price, it is a clear message that Peercoin is giving up the opportunity of being “the global money of future”. Maybe you are right with the purely backbone currency idea. If you are right, then I agree that it makes sense to do nothing with the fee to appear stable. But maybe it is a missed opportunity to become the biggest cryptocurrency of future. (Of course if there is no clear solution or simple solution to the gigantic blockchain problem, it is probably very reasonable to minimize its size.)

What is important before you pour millions into it, is to know that it is secure, and stable, not risky. Peercoin has established itself. Just because something new comes out that claims to be better, it has to be proven. Peercoin is becoming more proven by the day.

[quote=“josojo, post:59, topic:1068”]I am also in favour of transactionfee adjustment according to the transaction volume.

We really should quickly do adjustments to send merchants and developers the right signals. It’s a matter of perception. Waiting until the problem gets more problematic is not good enough.

For example, there are some people working on genius projects like peershare http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=527.0. And they need to know that peercoin will keep their fee low, when the value begins to rise. Otherwise they would look for a different currency.[/quote]

A high transaction fee is a problem for Peershare. One of the objectives of Peershare is to give people reasons to use Peercoin. If share prices are denominated in Peercoins, people will buy Peercoins to buy shares. When they sell shares, they will receive Peercoins. When they receive dividends, they will have Peercoins. josojo mentions that people like me might look to use other currencies because of a high transaction fee. This is not exactly correct, but on the right track. Peershare can be easily adapted to use whatever cryptocurrency the issuer decides to use. No doubt the cost of distributing dividends will be a key consideration when an issuer is deciding whether to issue dividends in Bitcoin, Litecoin or Peercoin. As Peershare is a demonstration of the inexpensive and robust security PoS can provide, I would expect issuers to have an inclination to use Peercoin. We need to facilitate this inclination by having fees be no higher than the actual cost to the network.

I am hearing a lot of people say the fee doesn’t bother them. However, it may bother other people who are using Peercoin for completely different reasons than you are. If someone else chooses not to use Peercoin because of high fees, then the value of your Peercoins will suffer.

In the poll I posted (http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=1539.0) about what do with the transaction fee a slim majority prefer to “Do nothing for now and reconsider the problem when it becomes more acute.” This makes me wonder if people understand how long it will take to make the change. First, we as a community have to agree on a set of specs. Then they must be coded. Then it must be tested extensively. Then it must be merged into the main branch and tested again. Then we have to prepare people for a hard fork and distribute the new software widely. Finally, it is adopted. We will be very fortunate if we can accomplish all of this in six months, but it will probably take longer.

A close second was the option to target a certain number of transactions and make fees high if the target is exceeded and make fees low when the transaction levels are below the target. So among those who want a change, this is the most popular. We who want a change should be pushing this forward so that when others realize a change is needed we can implement it relatively quickly.

@Jordan Lee
Regarding to your great project, sending dividend to 1000 shareholders would create transaction with size ~35kB, that is 0.35 PPC so $1.75 @ $5/ppc and $35 @ $100/ppc - so still acceptable I think. Maybe there is a way to store in Peershare’s blockchains public keys instead of addresses, then smaller shareholders may decide to receive dividends in other coins(and issuer will just convert pubkey to corresponding network address)? It would let you continue with Peercoin and help it gain traction still not closing Peershares for smaller shareholders.
BTW: Peercoin can ‘parasitize’ on other blockchains with faster confirmations/liberal fees, and use eg. Colored Coins with pub keys(yes, it weakens security but with reusable addresses it doesn’t matter anyway). Of course main shares on Peercoin network :D! Just like AsicMiner and AsicMiner-PT

Peershare sounds fascinating. I’d love to learn more…

[quote=“Jordan Lee, post:65, topic:1068”][quote=“josojo, post:59, topic:1068”]I am also in favour of transactionfee adjustment according to the transaction volume.

We really should quickly do adjustments to send merchants and developers the right signals. It’s a matter of perception. Waiting until the problem gets more problematic is not good enough.

For example, there are some people working on genius projects like peershare http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=527.0. And they need to know that peercoin will keep their fee low, when the value begins to rise. Otherwise they would look for a different currency.[/quote]

A high transaction fee is a problem for Peershare. One of the objectives of Peershare is to give people reasons to use Peercoin. If share prices are denominated in Peercoins, people will buy Peercoins to buy shares. When they sell shares, they will receive Peercoins. When they receive dividends, they will have Peercoins. josojo mentions that people like me might look to use other currencies because of a high transaction fee. This is not exactly correct, but on the right track. Peershare can be easily adapted to use whatever cryptocurrency the issuer decides to use. No doubt the cost of distributing dividends will be a key consideration when an issuer is deciding whether to issue dividends in Bitcoin, Litecoin or Peercoin. As Peershare is a demonstration of the inexpensive and robust security PoS can provide, I would expect issuers to have an inclination to use Peercoin. We need to facilitate this inclination by having fees be no higher than the actual cost to the network.

I am hearing a lot of people say the fee doesn’t bother them. However, it may bother other people who are using Peercoin for completely different reasons than you are. If someone else chooses not to use Peercoin because of high fees, then the value of your Peercoins will suffer.

In the poll I posted (http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=1539.0) about what do with the transaction fee a slim majority prefer to “Do nothing for now and reconsider the problem when it becomes more acute.” This makes me wonder if people understand how long it will take to make the change. First, we as a community have to agree on a set of specs. Then they must be coded. Then it must be tested extensively. Then it must be merged into the main branch and tested again. Then we have to prepare people for a hard fork and distribute the new software widely. Finally, it is adopted. We will be very fortunate if we can accomplish all of this in six months, but it will probably take longer.

A close second was the option to target a certain number of transactions and make fees high if the target is exceeded and make fees low when the transaction levels are below the target. So among those who want a change, this is the most popular. We who want a change should be pushing this forward so that when others realize a change is needed we can implement it relatively quickly.[/quote]

I really don’t know why I feel like I’ve almost never heard of Peershare. Isn’t this incredibly huge for Peercoin?

Hi all, first post here.

I saw this thread and felt like I had to comment, so I registered.

First of all, why is there a need for a “backbone” currency, and what is a “backbone”? Gold and savings accounts are not the backbone of currencies right now, gold is a commodity that is perceived as having value, and savings accounts are a way for banks to borrow your money on the cheap. Gold does not back any fiat currency by definition, and there is no need for currency to be backed because it’s legal tender and only a few conspiracy theorists believe the monetary system is going to collapse.

The only chance these digital currencies have to take over transactions on any large scale is by having a large user base so that they are actually useful as money.

All that has been said already I suppose, but let’s consider this, GBP is one of the smaller major currencies, and the money supply for that is in the hundreds of billions. If say Peercoin is to be universally accepted as a currency/store of value with a supply of ~200 million coins for example, it would have to have a value in dollars on the order of hundreds to thousands of USD. To lose 10 dollars on a transaction is only acceptable if you’re talking about wire transfers and other high fee transactions, which I’m pretty sure are not the main use of currency. Sure credit cards charge pretty high fees, but credit card companies rebate part of those fees to the consumer and merchants raise prices to reflect on that, and some merchants are now passing the fee onto consumers, essentially offering a discount for buying with cash, so it’s not the same.

I’m a bit late to the cryptocurrency craze and I don’t fully understand the way by which they operate but in basic economics terms, any digital currency has to have value in terms of how easily it can be transacted and how well it keeps value, and the way I see it that means 1. it has to have inflation built in, and proper incentives for users to support the network (bitcoin seems to fail here, because the rewards diminish exponentially) and 2. it has to have minimal transaction cost, as cash does, and Peercoin doesn’t have that. Which is a shame IMO, because the rest of its properties seem pretty good for use as money. As people mentioned, destroying Peercoins in a transaction has a deflationary effect so it doesn’t have an economic cost overall, but the way it’s structured right now strongly dis-incentivizes actual transactions. It doesn’t mean anything that at current market prices it’s not very expensive, because right now Peercoin is not a widely accepted currency.

EDIT: also I don’t see how Primecoin being better for transactions does anything. Peercoin does not act like a savings account because that money is not circulating in the economy. The reason banks can pay you interest is because they can invest your money, which requires transactions. The inflationary effect comes from the government printing presses and doesn’t happen at your savings account directly. It’s not the next gold, because we already have something called gold. You can only have a fiat currency that works well as a fiat currency, not two currencies with flaws, the market will figure out their relative value and if they’re both flawed in some way, their value is zero.

Every time I tried to write a reply to this seemingly simple question, I found myself writing oodles of text that surely was going to be picked apart by every financial analyst out there. I’m tired, and I’m going to do my best to give some fodder for discussion in hopes of spawning some ideas here.

This would be a better topic for a TV special, with a roundtable debate instead of a forum posting. :slight_smile:

Trying to be brief, a backbone is something that anyone can use as a common reference point or conduit. Avoid thinking about cryptocurrency for a minute, and look at common things we’re more familiar with:

Wouldn’t your cell phone be limited if you could only call other cell phone users on the same network? Having the ability to convert your cellular call, back into the standard telephone network has its benefits. This is an example of a backbone that large telephone companies peer-up and make it work behind the scenes.

Wouldn’t your debit card be limited, if you could only use it at merchants who used the same bank as you? Having the ability for all banks to peer-up and share network connections for financial transactions makes that happen.

Now with cryptocurrency, there has been no interoperability standard between cryptocoins that I know of… We are using exchanges to do that, and we’re all competing in the marketplace to ask a merchant “Hey! Accept Bitcoin, ok, can you accept Litecoin? Hey! Want to accept Feathercoin!”.

There is going to be a missing piece to the puzzle needed at some point. That’s Peercoin’s network. It isn’t here to compete with Bitcoin for everyday transactions. It’s the opposite. It is here to hold large value for slower transactions, a smaller blockchain, with a relatively limiting transactional fee (0.01)

There is a time when you want to buy a soda pop with your cell phone for 0.00001233 BTC

There is going to be a time when a virtual cryptocurrency ATM needs $10,000 transferred immediately, and it doesn’t have time, nor want to wait for that transaction to be assembled in the same proof-of-work block as that soda pop with 0.00001233 BTC

Yes, I know, Bitcoin allows you to have a higher transaction fee. But Bitcoin will suffer from blockchain bloat too, so will Litecoin.

Peercoin is purposely designed to take the need for large volume transactions, that do not belong on Bitcoin’s or Litecoin’s proof-of-work bloated blockchains. In addition, by being a proof-of-stake network, it can also be used as the heartbeat for a peer-to-peer exchange network too. There is a multitude of possibilities.

With enough effort I could probably expand these ideas better so they make sense, but I’m a little talked out and tired at the moment.

But questions like this:

First of all, why is there a need for a “backbone” currency, and what is a “backbone”?

Will be self apparent as to what it is, why we need it, and why it is currently in use. Give it another year or two, and you’ll probably be using a backbone with out even realizing it.

The internet today works on major internet backbones with peering arrangements and most people don’t even know about that part.

I invite the criticisms and comments, but please be friendly.

I must also say that Sunny King may have something else completely different in mind. Maybe I’m way off base, or maybe I’ve got some of it right. Who knows. :frowning:

Every time I tried to write a reply to this seemingly simple question, I found myself writing oodles of text that surely was going to be picked apart by every financial analyst out there. I’m tired, and I’m going to do my best to give some fodder for discussion in hopes of spawning some ideas here.

This would be a better topic for a TV special, with a roundtable debate instead of a forum posting. :slight_smile:

Trying to be brief, a backbone is something that anyone can use as a common reference point or conduit. Avoid thinking about cryptocurrency for a minute, and look at common things we’re more familiar with:

Wouldn’t your cell phone be limited if you could only call other cell phone users on the same network? Having the ability to convert your cellular call, back into the standard telephone network has its benefits. This is an example of a backbone that large telephone companies peer-up and make it work behind the scenes.

Wouldn’t your debit card be limited, if you could only use it at merchants who used the same bank as you? Having the ability for all banks to peer-up and share network connections for financial transactions makes that happen.

Now with cryptocurrency, there has been no interoperability standard between cryptocoins that I know of… We are using exchanges to do that, and we’re all competing in the marketplace to ask a merchant “Hey! Accept Bitcoin, ok, can you accept Litecoin? Hey! Want to accept Feathercoin?”.

There is going to be a missing piece to the puzzle needed at some point. That’s Peercoin’s network. It isn’t here to compete with Bitcoin for everyday transactions. It’s the opposite. It is here to hold large value for less frequent transactions, a smaller blockchain, with a special transaction fee (0.01) to stop microtransactions AKA “dust”.

There is a time when you want to buy a soda pop with your cell phone for 0.00001233 BTC

There is going to be a time when a virtual cryptocurrency ATM needs $10,000 transferred immediately (in PPC), and it doesn’t have time, nor want to wait for that transaction to be assembled in the same proof-of-work block as that soda pop with 0.00001233 BTC

Yes, I know, Bitcoin allows you to have a higher transaction fee to get priority processing. But Bitcoin will suffer from blockchain bloat so will Litecoin too.

Peercoin is purposely designed to take the need for large volume transactions, that do not belong on Bitcoin’s or Litecoin’s proof-of-work bloated blockchains. In addition, by being a proof-of-stake network, it can also be used as the heartbeat for a peer-to-peer exchange network too. There is a multitude of possibilities.

With enough effort I could probably expand these ideas better so they make sense, but I’m a little talked out and tired at the moment.

But questions like this:

First of all, why is there a need for a "backbone" currency, and what is a "backbone"?

Will be self apparent as to what it is, why we need it, and why it is currently in use. Give it another year or two, and you’ll probably be using a backbone with out even realizing it.

The internet today works on major internet backbones with peering arrangements and most people don’t even know that…

I invite the criticisms and comments, but please be friendly.

I must also say that Sunny King may have something else completely different in mind. Maybe I’m way off base, or maybe I’ve got some of it right. Who knows. :frowning:

[quote=“ppcman, post:70, topic:1068”]Wouldn’t your cell phone be limited if you could only call other cell phone users on the same network? Having the ability to convert your cellular call, back into the standard telephone network has its benefits. This is an example of a backbone that large telephone companies peer-up and make it work behind the scenes.

Wouldn’t your debit card be limited, if you could only use it at merchants who used the same bank as you? Having the ability for all banks to peer-up and share network connections for financial transactions makes that happen.

Now with cryptocurrency, there has been no interoperability standard between cryptocoins that I know of… We are using exchanges to do that, and we’re all competing in the marketplace to ask a merchant “Hey! Accept Bitcoin, ok, can you accept Litecoin? Hey! Want to accept Feathercoin!”.

There is going to be a missing piece to the puzzle needed at some point. That’s Peercoin’s network. It isn’t here to compete with Bitcoin for everyday transactions. It’s the opposite. It is here to hold large value for slower transactions, a smaller blockchain, with a relatively limiting transactional fee (0.01)

There is a time when you want to buy a soda pop with your cell phone for 0.00001233 BTC

There is going to be a time when a virtual cryptocurrency ATM needs $10,000 transferred immediately, and it doesn’t have time, nor want to wait for that transaction to be assembled in the same proof-of-work block as that soda pop with 0.00001233 BTC

Yes, I know, Bitcoin allows you to have a higher transaction fee. But Bitcoin will suffer from blockchain bloat too, so will Litecoin.

Peercoin is purposely designed to take the need for large volume transactions, that do not belong on Bitcoin’s or Litecoin’s proof-of-work bloated blockchains. In addition, by being a proof-of-stake network, it can also be used as the heartbeat for a peer-to-peer exchange network too. There is a multitude of possibilities.[/quote]

Except we already have something called banks that provide that service. If transactions are limited, the velocity of money is limited and thus the price per peercoin will have to be high, and thus the transaction fee will have to be high assuming widespread adoption. I can send huge sums of money via a 3-day ACH for 3 dollars, or if I’m not patient I can pay 25 dollars to have it sent instantly on a business day. 0.01 Peercoins is easily worth over 25 dollars in any scenario where it’s widely adopted for this service.

Right now it might make some sense to do a large money transfer using Peercoin, but it makes less and less sense the more people are on the network because of the fee.

I don’t disagree that BTC or LTC have serious flaws, I’m saying none of these currencies can be a true substitute for any paper currency issued by a government, for different reasons. Central banks do have the benefit of being able to control the money supply and induce inflation with economic growth, but having manual control over this is clearly not necessary; As long as there is some amount of inflation built in that approximates economic growth, investment is encouraged but the currency will not lose value so quickly as to deter its use.

The multiple currency situation could work out if the system had a built in way of converting the coins directly, but it doesn’t. If you want to pay for something and you’ve run out of BTC or XPM or whatever is the “transaction currency”, then you must convert some of your Peercoin or “savings currency” to accomplish that, and in the process you lose part of your money by transferring it to someone who has the other currency to give you. Again, this isn’t necessarily bad, the slight deflationary effect is like paying for the use of the network, but whether people are willing to pay this is very sensitive to the fee amount, and I’ve explained why the 0.01 fee will very quickly become unattractive assuming things go well for Peercoin. There should be an auction like system for faster fee processing since that would add economic value, and then the “fixed” fee should be roughly correlated to the resources the network expends. That way you have something whose costs make sense, as they’d be strongly correlated to the security and speed of the network, the service you are paying for.

Again, if everyone was already using Peercoin and then you introduce this fixed fee, no problem, it would become a reserve currency since everyone’s wealth would already be in Peercoin, and you could plausibly see banks trying to undercut the transfer fee with some other currency to try and replace it. But the fact is no one is using it, and the only way to get people to use it is to have it make sense as a currency. The fact that people immediately notice that 0.01 Peercoins is a lot of money if Peercoins become remotely close to the current value of Bitcoins is a huge problem.

Just because some people like to daydream about these digital coins becoming the currency of choice doesn’t make the situation different. Other stores of value such as gold and paper money start with a degree of desirability; People think gold is precious because it is rare, and people value paper money because everyone else accepts it as a store of value. Peercoin has to jump that hurdle of widespread acceptance before it is a suitable store of value, and the way to jump that hurdle is to have the qualities that economists have already identified as being good for a currency: (1) durability, (2) divisibility, (3) transportability, and (4) noncounterfeitability. All cryptocurrencies have reasonably good durability, divisibility, and non-counterfietability built in by design, but transportability is the problem for Peercoin. Transportability in the electronic era is essentially transaction fees.

@concavecircle
Contrary, I see Peercoin as the only one with guaranteed transportability by its decentralization level. G. Andersen admits that BTC goes towards huge computing/networking centers but not mentioning about power shortages, sabotages, viruses, hijacked jet planes | more control, blacklisting, coin certification. Even with all those elaborated structures - will it be able to transfer monthly salaries of 1% of world population on time? I think every coin that tries to catch Visa will probably hit the roof very hard, what can lead to price collapse after cutting overheated predictions(with whole economy built around). With Peercoin contract is known from start, we can that expect transfer-hold ratio will balance smoothly, ability to audit the system(and taking part in verification!)even by smallest user will be intact.
You have to remember that user can open micropayment channels(day/month/year/decade lifetime) between payment processors and live almost without fees. Two side micropayment channels between different cryptos give unlimited exchange capabilities(I’m currently working on such gateway to existing exchanges).
Peercoin can last long because it uses Satoshi’s technology correctly.

[quote=“kactech, post:73, topic:1068”]@concavecircle
Contrary, I see Peercoin as the only one with guaranteed transportability by its decentralization level. G. Andersen admits that BTC goes towards huge computing/networking centers but not mentioning about power shortages, sabotages, viruses, hijacked jet planes | more control, blacklisting, coin certification. Even with all those elaborated structures - will it be able to transfer monthly salaries of 1% of world population on time? I think every coin that tries to catch Visa will probably hit the roof very hard, what can lead to price collapse after cutting overheated predictions(with whole economy built around). With Peercoin contract is known from start, we can that expect transfer-hold ratio will balance smoothly, ability to audit the system(and taking part in verification!)even by smallest user will be intact.
You have to remember that user can open micropayment channels(day/month/year/decade lifetime) between payment processors and live almost without fees. Two side micropayment channels between different cryptos give unlimited exchange capabilities(I’m currently working on such gateway to existing exchanges).
Peercoin can last long because it uses Satoshi’s technology correctly.[/quote]

Again I don’t think it’s a question of which coin is the best, it’s a question of is any coin better than the paper money that is already in circulation? I think the answer is no. Why do you need a 3rd party payment processor to accomplish small transactions? Why is that even necessary when the money is entirely electronic and decentralized to start with? Transportability of money is an attribute that reflects the cost of moving the money, and here that cost is a hard coded 0.01 PPC. Making a better transaction fee structure is the equivalent of differentiating the coin for the money market.

It is not a good thing that this currency is limited to applications where this fee is not significant; Imagine if banks used a different currency for wires. Pretty soon another bank would figure out that’s completely stupid, and put in place a system to wire the currency you actually use to buy things, and consumers will realize it’s way easier to deal with one currency than two and switch over. In this case, PPC is not widely adopted, and people are going to need to see the benefit of using it if they are going to switch. Currently, the way you take advantage of inflation with USD is by investing your USD when the Fed is printing money. What this also does is let you profit from the fact that someone else is able to borrow that money. Want less risk? Keep more in savings, that reduces the volatility of your net worth and brings the expected value of your money and assets lower, closer to inflation. Or, you could buy gold as an inflation hedge. Oh and, if you follow the gold markets, you’ll know it’s highly speculative and volatile, and not many people actually want to store their money there, i.e. the money that people actually use is the money that has consistent value.

I think it’s delusional to imagine how Peercoin could work. We already have a dozen perfectly good currencies, and a perfectly good store of value called gold. Just because some people are starting to use Bitcoins does not mean it’s going to take off, and by extension just because Peercoin is better than Bitcoin which has some limited use does not mean Peercoin is going to take off. The standard is currency such as the US Dollar, and Peercoin cannot have this transaction fee built in this way if it’s going to offer something a combination of say gold and USD does not. Only then will people start thinking about using Peercoin instead of USD. With a better transaction fee structure I think there would be pretty strong incentives to use Peercoin over USD, because everything else about Peercoin is pretty good. If you want the value of Peercoin to go up, you need people to use it, and if you want people to use it, you cannot have massive transaction fees. The main advantage as far as transportability goes for a decentralized currency is exactly the fact that in theory the transaction cost can come down to the real economic cost of the transaction instead of providing a profit margin for an oligopolistic 3rd party payment processor.

As a side comment, I think the fact that Bitcoin is doing so well shows that people are very open to the idea of a new currency given that it offers real benefits. If it seems like the discussion about Peercoin transaction fees goes in the right direction (IMO of course), I would probably put down a large chunk of money into Peercoin. None of these new crypto currencies can replace gold, but they can replace dollars because they are fiat money, and I’m willing to bet money that proof of stake + slight inflation built in + transaction cost reflecting economic cost is the right formula for a better fiat currency.

I don’t like crossposts. Here is my opinion about a fixed transaction fee:

To sum it up:
A fixed rate might fail by being too high to attract people to Peercoin OR by being too low to prevent people from swamping the network with transactions.
Variable fees can adjust!

If you want this in more detail, please visit the link^^

@concavecircle
I was referring BTC just as an example of that crypto where tx cost -> ASIC+elect.
BTC network is processing ~60k trans./day, past 24 there were 182 blocks with 25btc each(collected tx fees are < 1% - omitted) so we have 0,075/tx
Can we assume that economic cost of BTC transfer is somewhere between 0.0001 and 0.075?

If you believe Banks are operating properly, then go back to the banking system and leave us alone. Do you have some ulterior agenda for participating in these discussions?

[quote=“kactech, post:73, topic:1068”]@concavecircle
Contrary, I see Peercoin as the only one with guaranteed transportability by its decentralization level. G. Andersen admits that BTC goes towards huge computing/networking centers but not mentioning about power shortages, sabotages, viruses, hijacked jet planes | more control, blacklisting, coin certification. Even with all those elaborated structures - will it be able to transfer monthly salaries of 1% of world population on time? I think every coin that tries to catch Visa will probably hit the roof very hard, what can lead to price collapse after cutting overheated predictions(with whole economy built around). With Peercoin contract is known from start, we can that expect transfer-hold ratio will balance smoothly, ability to audit the system(and taking part in verification!)even by smallest user will be intact.
You have to remember that user can open micropayment channels(day/month/year/decade lifetime) between payment processors and live almost without fees. Two side micropayment channels between different cryptos give unlimited exchange capabilities(I’m currently working on such gateway to existing exchanges).
Peercoin can last long because it uses Satoshi’s technology correctly.[/quote]

I’d like to re-quote this post, to simply say, I agree. You’ve covered the importance of Peercoin very well, and I think people should re-read what you’ve written.

Thank you Kactech!

Hey guys, been awhile. I just got my new PC. :stuck_out_tongue:

Reading back, I just realized that PPC’s energy efficiency is truly revolutionary and we must use it to the fullest. I still disagree with PPC becoming a backbone currency with high fees. We are wasting this valuable innovative energy efficient system of securing the network. We could, in the future, have lower transaction fees than bitcoin.

When bitcoin reaches the point where miners only profit from tx fees, the cost of tx fees would be mostly from the energy that the miners consumed. The miners must break even from the electricity they pay running their PoW machines by raising tx fees. However, validating transactions in PPC does not need too much energy and so it should consume less energy and in turn less transaction fees.

Also, I found that there is a misconception about the energy efficiency of PPC. The appropriate measure for energy efficiency should be size of transactions relayed in the network per energy consumed. From this, we can answer how much energy is consumed to relay 1 kB of data. We can compare this result from other cryptocoins but it is clear that PoS coins would definitely top the list.

Because PPC is energy efficient, it should cost less to confirm transactions than in PoW. Therefore, transaction fees could be lower. The low tx fees might just be PoS coins’ biggest selling point in the future. However, I’m afraid that the PPC community and devs refuse to take advantage of this true energy efficiency and rather keep high fixed fees which might just create more problems than solutions.

Congratulations!

[quote=“lumierre, post:79, topic:1068”]Reading back, I just realized that PPC’s energy efficiency is truly revolutionary and we must use it to the fullest. I still disagree with PPC becoming a backbone currency with high fees. We are wasting this valuable innovative energy efficient system of securing the network. We could, in the future, have lower transaction fees than bitcoin.

When bitcoin reaches the point where miners only profit from tx fees, the cost of tx fees would be mostly from the energy that the miners consumed. The miners must break even from the electricity they pay running their PoW machines by raising tx fees. However, validating transactions in PPC does not need too much energy and so it should consume less energy and in turn less transaction fees.[/quote]

Sustaining the network needs to be one of the main goals for each crypto currency / commodity / whatever!

And because of that the energy inefficiency could become one of the main flaws of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is currently at block 275261. At block 420000 the coinbase reward will be reduced to 12.5 BTC per block. I wonder what happens in 144739 blocks. Even if the hash rate growth stops that skyrocketing it is expected to take less than 3 years until that happens. With a stable hash rate it takes ~2.75 years to reach block 420000. With a continuous hash rate growth of 20% (although I don’t expect that growth rate to be sustained for more than 1 year…) it will take only 2.2 years to reach block 420000.
From block 420001 on the mining devices need to pay off by the coinbase reward of 12.5 BTC per block plus some transaction fees. If the Bitcoin price isn’t enough to pay the electricity bills with the mined Bitcoins a rational choice could be to stop mining. The bigger the hash rate drop the more interesting it is to power the miners back on. That causes miners to drop off, etc., etc., etc…
If too many miners drop off in a short time frame, the risk for a > 50% attack becomes more and more threatening.
…and this risk increases the more the Bitcoin network relies on transaction fees to pay the miners. The continuous decrease of coinbase rewards (each 210000 blocks) is likely to lead to a centralization of mining in countries/areas with low energy costs. With rewards too low to pay the devices’ energy, large amounts of miners might be shut down at once…

I find it more important to know about the energy that is needed to secure the network. Who would be interested in cheap transactions if the network itself could not be sustained? I bet more people are interested in costs per transaction. The energy efficiency is the main reason why Peercoin’s network security and integrity can be sustained quite easily (compared to PoW only networks!). And that is the base for long-term trust in Peercoin!

Low transaction fees have a (potential) price that the whole community has to pay: blockchain bloating, network swamping, slow transaction execution because they might have to wait until they can be put in a block in case of a transaction rate that exceeds the capabilitiy of the network.
But I agree that high and fixed transaction fees might not be the best implementation.

Although I hate crossposting, I want to engage in this discussion with my thoughts:

The more I think about a fixed transaction fee, the more I come to the conclusion that a variable transaction fee would be better. The only problem I see with this variable transaction fee: you can’t rely on it’s height.
Let’s try to find out how serious that problem is.

Let me try to compare it with something we know for some time - BTC.

[ul][li]
In BTC the transaction fee is optional. It is paid to the miners for solving a block that includes transactions with fees. Fees incentivize the miners to include transactions with fees.
You can avoid a transaction fee at the price of an unknown transaction duration. So if the transaction is not time critical, you can save money by paying 0.00 fee.[/li]

[li]
In PPC the transaction fee is mandatory. It is destroyed and not paid to miners. Fees don’t incentivize the miners directly. Fees incentivize the ones who want to execute transaction to do that deliberately. This prevents the network from being swamped.
If you were in a PPC world with a variable transaction fee you could save transaction fees by waiting for a period with smaller transaction fees if the current ones were to high for your taste.
One drawback might be: the variable transaction fees can stay high or even rise if lots of transactions need to be done and are postponed until they can’t be postponed any longer; eventually they might begin to swamp the network despite the high fees.
But thinking twice this is quite similar to paying high fees for BTC transactions if you are in a hurry:
the miners (I imply the majority being PoS miners) that work (energy efficiently) on the transaction do not only get a PoS reward, but by destroying the (relatively) high fees, their share of issued PPC rises. It’s quite similar to earning high fees for processing urgent BTC transactions.
[/li][/ul]

That would kind of resemble BTC’s dependency between the point of time you think about excuting a transaction and the point of time you want to have it done:

[ul][li]
BTC: individually eligible transaction fees incentivize miners to include the transaction to the next block. You pay extra if you are in a hurry.[/li]
[li]PPC: variable and determined by the network transaction fees incentivize people to execute a transaction in a time with low fees (caused by low transaction rates). Once again, you (might) pay extra if you are in a hurry.[/li][/ul]

It has taken some time, but now I find this approach of variable transaction fees more sophisticated than a fixed rate because it can adjust the fees to the demand for transactions.
A fixed rate might fail by being too high to attract people to Peercoin or by being too low to prevent people from swamping the network with transactions. Variable fees can adjust! I doubt that 0.01 PPC/kB is the perfect match for each situation.

I really like a variable fee, although it might be hard to create a sophisticated algorithm.
I see more advantages than disadvantages at the moment.

Please tear this post apart if you have valid arguments for doing so!
I feel the transaction fee discussion needs much more input!

One last thing - just to name a disputatious idea that crossed my mind:
it could be considered to incentivize the miners directly: if the transaction fee is higher than x (needs to be defined^^), the part above x is not destroyed but (partly?) paid as reward!
Without that incentive PPC holders not doing anything profit by the ones sustaining the network.
It would be especially nice to pay that reward for PoS blocks only.
…maybe I overshoot the mark :slight_smile: