Economics PPC/XPM long-term and short-term strategies?

Protocol
1

Hi,

I am not sure if this is the right place in the forum for this post, but here goes…

Peercoin seems quite flawed on several fronts, which may incapacitate its quicker adoption and higher credibility. As an economist and marketer, I will not discuss technical issues. I actually like many of the technical and logical solutions adopted, which is why I also invested (very little ATM) in PPC and XPM as well. My major dilemmas are the following:

  1. Short-term and long-term strategy. It seems there is no long-term strategy (or the communication thereof) and contingency plans. For example, what if:
    A. BTC continues with its growth and development - hopefully this will be the scenario, but its long-term odds are not good without several changes. Which market position will PPC and XPM reach and how to clearly communicate it?
    B. BTC crashes - how will PPC position itself PRIOR to that in order to truly be a safe haven, at least in part (which could contribute to tremendous growth). How to further distance from BTC and convince various types of stakeholders that both XPM and especially PPC can be trusted long-term. What is being done (besides the protocol level) to insure more stability respect to BTC and LTC, what is the desired mid-term financial market position etc. etc. I am not saying we can influence the market (we clearly cannot, since it is the Wild west out there), but communication of goals can be clearer, so that the investors have some cognitive guidance as well.
  2. XPM has amazing properties and, unlike PPC which in my opinion does not have to be quickly adopted as payment medium (but instead position itself better towards the desired long-term position as “value holder”), it should be adopted by as many merchants as possible (XPM map, clear communication of benefits, payment processors)… No advancement in this regard is visible (I am not saying there is none, just that the public is not seeing any of it)
  3. New clients (QT) must be released more frequently. Even if not all changes can be prepared in the desired time, more activity has to be visible and step-by-step improvement will do just as well. Some solutions for the QT client are urgently needed - other users have already described them in great detail.

Guys, sorry for all these questions and issues and also if this is not the right place to post them! I just wanted to briefly share some of the dilemmas I have while, at the same time, understanding (or trying to) the potential of these two currencies and what is preventing further growth. I also want to look a bit further from the current market speculations (for all cryptos) which are actually leading nowhere in terms of long-term sustainability and solution of real world problems.

2

As I thought it was off-topic here: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=990.0 and you can’t create a new thread, I took the freedom to create a new thread for you 8)

Might as well comment on your post :wink:

Re 1. I think the strategy for Peercoin is clearly stated. It wants to be a backbone currency or storage of value as opposite to a point-of-sale, high-transaction coin.

Re 1A See above. Peercoin will benefit from Bitcoins growth as they will supplement each other, at least in the short to medium term (1-2 Years).
Re 1B The questions is why Bitcoin would crash. As Peercoin shares a lot of the code with Bitcoin at least the perception will be that other cryptos based on Bitcoin als have an issue. Most likely the damage would be done, before you would be able to respond to it. Especially at this early stage as many people don’t fully understand the concepts and the relations between all the cryptos.
That’s why NXT and EMunie clearly trying to disassociate themselves from Bitcoin as calling themselves respectively 2nd and 3rd generation cryptos. Personally I think Peercoin also should do that more from a marketing perspective, but I think the community is divided by that.

Re 2 No comment, leave that to others closer involved with XPM/Primecoin.

Re 3 Fully agree, I’ve been making statements in several threads. Development should be more community driven and visible. This would create more interest. I’m one of these users underlining the urgent need for more functionality in the wallet, even if only to stay ahead of the new clients from others cryptos.

I think there is also a thread somewhere inviting people to post what is required to get Peercoin mainstream and in the hands of Joe Average. Share your thoughts!

3

Thanks!

4
  1. General >>I thought quite the opposite, PeerCoin has always been positioned as a long term store of wealth, and has the flexibility if the fee is lowered to be used for smaller transactions however on this second point Sunny has a communicated a very thought out strategy as and gives weekly updates. No other DEV has been this consistent.

A/B. PPC has always been communicated as a backbone long term store of wealth, this is not an issue for PPC. Infact it may be that BTC has t shift to POS causing PPC to rise alot. XPM acts in tandem and provides a very different has algorithm and is 10x faster than BTC, however I’m not sure this make it more secure for confirmations, some one else would have to chime in. It seems more for smaller quick transactions. Having said that as noted PeerCoin % fee is under consideration, but there are reason why this perhaps should not change in line with PPC being long term storage of large wealth

B It already has by different algo’s, smoothing functions, minting, not reliant on miners, and for PPC much lest coins that LTC and now even BTC being produced.

  1. It seems that PPC is more the longterm, XPM is better for transactional.

  2. This is happening. Also Prime coin was released which was not small feat. PPC + XPM makes up for wallet dev issues.

5

I agree with most of the points Cybnate and jubalix made.

Here are some clarifications of my points.

BTC Crash: this will happen, because of the real parameters (day-to-day utility, cost, transactional costs etc.) behind the current concept and “market” activities. Maybe in a few months, maybe next year… this depends on several factors, mostly speculative and related to big investments already made, the barriers to exit of various stakeholders and investment alternatives.

However, this does not mean that BTC will cease to exist and other cryptos will neither! It just means several hard corrections will have to be made (with regard to crypto prices, transactional utility and value, protocols and so forth). So, why not be one step ahead of time?

In the ideal crypto world, in the mid and long-term, mass users will basically want to have the following (besides decentralization, anonimity…):

A. 1-2 standard crypt currencies being used daily or for long-term value storage (100+ currencies cannot exist and truly fulfill all currency roles). Probably max 5 currencies in the long-term +/- innovators (improved currencies replacing old ones). In my opinion, the next 12-24 months will be crucial for basic standard adoption, after which improvements will be incremental for a long time, but not before the market has been subdivided once more (I am quite sure that BTC will not have 90% of the market at that point).

Mass users will never have 5 or 10 different wallets for their purchasing needs. Multiwallet and client exchange solutions will be necessary.

B. Relative currency price stability

  • users: maintaining or increasing wealth/purchasing power respect to fiat (any system which provides stability or returns of 10-15% p/a would be enough after all initial speculations)
  • merchants: prices of goods/services will have to be pegged to fiat currencies for years to come, therefore quick exchanges (crypto-fiat) and hedging options will probably be more important to them. However, cryptos will attract users attention and allow for free PR for years to come, therefore there are many solid adoption points. Cooperation with current and new payment processors is, of course, crucial at this stage and has to be a continuous activity.

C. Services: why not look at all innovations planned by new entrants (Emunie is a good example) and implement in the current protocols of PPC/XPM some services that provide true value to users? That way, new entrants’ main selling points can immediately be neutralized, without of course jeopardizing the basic attributes on which PPC and XPM have built their current positions.

Both PPC and XPM are innovative, however:

  1. Current differentiation from other currencies is not nearly enough, because it is not unique (can and is being copied) and some of it is not relevant for users. For example, no one truly cares about “green gold” (PPC), because although there are many positive externalities (which should be used right now for more PR generation), users care about other aspects much more. Less energy consumption paired with increased network security is a better “selling point”. If older cryptocurrencies switch to POS as jubalix mentioned (if that is possible, I don’t know), I would like to see how that can benefit PPC instead of those other coins (ok, maybe PPC did it first, but if BTC can do it as well, that advantage would be lost). XPM has some great scientific value (again a great PR point), but much more emphasis should be placed on the 1-minute confirmation (AFAIK, it has been proven that 7 or 8 confirmations, i.e. 7-8 minutes is actually very safe) and use it to quickly increase (quickly as in right now) the adoption by merchants.

  2. Consider partial cobranding - PPC/XPM multiwallet with new services, one day perhaps with integrated exchange and a joint “mission and utility storyline” for users, investors, merchants and payment processors. Both currencies could profit if this is done correctly without jeopardizing the basic individual benefits.

  3. This is a bit extreme and certainly, like everything else, open for discussion. That is, getting ready for the potential BTC crash by communicating clearly to the public PPC/XPM’s preparedness for this, by… (stating all the arguments, some of which may yet have to be created :slight_smile: ). This could dramatically increase the current confidence levels and decrease the investors’ doubts in which currencies to invest should this happen. Many will escape to fiat, but a certain % will definitely want to quickly invest in others and this could also be PPC/XPM’s great chance.

Much more can be said, but this is already long enough, sorry :slight_smile:

6

Guys, is anyone seeing any advancement whatsoever? In terms of development, marketing, pr, market acceptance, anything, anyone? Can we help?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

7

Hi, pvox

If you check out this entry, it should give you the reassurance you seek:

If you want more information on this initiative, check out this thread:

It is a bit long and technical, but persevere - it is good stuff

8

Thx, RobertLloyd.

I understand some development is going on, I am actually more worried about other issues, some of which I already mentioned in my previous posts.

  1. Too much “blind trust” of the community towards Mr. Sunny King. I understand he is a great developper (although no one really knows him right?), but it seems to me he is not properly coordinating all efforts required for PPC and XPM to truly grow. It is all too slow, without some sort of “management” (yeah, I understand what decentralization is :slight_smile: ) and without proper execution of other activity levels - PR, marketing, negotiations with merchants and payment processors etc. Check out some lesser coins (e.g. Earthcoin which probably has no real future) and what they are doing on various levels. Why isn’t XPM properly “marketed” and adopted as a fast, stable crypto and PPC as a way of truly reassuring investors in case of a “BTC crash”? Some basic activities should be done more frequently and thoroughly, prior to advanced and currently probably not so necessary protocol adjustments.

  2. Too much anticipation without proper results (e.g. client version 0.4). If Sunny King is such a great developper, really why is it taking so long? Why don’t we have any information about expected new features? Can we learn from competitors (I already mentioned Emunie - whatever their true agenda is) and some features they are heavily announcing and implement some of it in the PPC/XPM protocols and wallets?

  3. If you look at the PPC/BTC ratio, which is in my opinion the most important as a quasi-indicator of short and mid-term differentiation from both BTC and LTC, it is stagnating (XPM/BTC is actually getting lower). More innovations and a proper promotion would dramatically increase those ratios even in the short term.

I am not trolling, really, I would love to see some proper, more coordinated steps. I do believe in PPC in the long term, not so sure anymore about XPM because I am afraid others will complete necessary steps toward adoption more quickly.

9

[quote=“pvox, post:8, topic:1390”]Thx, RobertLloyd.

I understand some development is going on, I am actually more worried about other issues, some of which I already mentioned in my previous posts.

  1. Too much “blind trust” of the community towards Mr. Sunny King. I understand he is a great developper (although no one really knows him right?), but it seems to me he is not properly coordinating all efforts required for PPC and XPM to truly grow. It is all too slow, without some sort of “management” (yeah, I understand what decentralization is :slight_smile: ) and without proper execution of other activity levels - PR, marketing, negotiations with merchants and payment processors etc. Check out some lesser coins (e.g. Earthcoin which probably has no real future) and what they are doing on various levels. Why isn’t XPM properly “marketed” and adopted as a fast, stable crypto and PPC as a way of truly reassuring investors in case of a “BTC crash”? Some basic activities should be done more frequently and thoroughly, prior to advanced and currently probably not so necessary protocol adjustments.

  2. Too much anticipation without proper results (e.g. client version 0.4). If Sunny King is such a great developper, really why is it taking so long? Why don’t we have any information about expected new features? Can we learn from competitors (I already mentioned Emunie - whatever their true agenda is) and some features they are heavily announcing and implement some of it in the PPC/XPM protocols and wallets?

  3. If you look at the PPC/BTC ratio, which is in my opinion the most important as a quasi-indicator of short and mid-term differentiation from both BTC and LTC, it is stagnating (XPM/BTC is actually getting lower). More innovations and a proper promotion would dramatically increase those ratios even in the short term.

I am not trolling, really, I would love to see some proper, more coordinated steps. I do believe in PPC in the long term, not so sure anymore about XPM because I am afraid others will complete necessary steps toward adoption more quickly.[/quote]
So just some general thoughts based on above. I would say that based on market cap, trading volumes and listing on exchanges both peercoins and primecoins are doing very good and place in top 15 with peercoin being #3 consistently. Both coins are open source so anyone can help out, Sunny is slow because even though he spends a lot of time on development he has other obligations as well.

As far as anticipation goes I am anticipating midas on GOX and KNCminer Neptunes in Q2 2014 and just about anything else in crypto community.

And as far as bitcoin adopting PoS is very unlikely as it would immediately undermine their stand on 21M coin limit. And both Peercoins and Primecoins are relatively new and they need time to grow and mature as this is still emerging technology (ie mastercoin & peershare projects).

10

Sahkan,

I am not talking about current market parameters, but about PPC’s and XPM’s potential which is not being built upon correctly and quickly enough. Sorry, this is my opinion and I am prepared to offer additional arguments if necessary. I would not want inferior coins to surpass PPC and XPM just because there is not enough communication with the public and innovation.

So, I guess you know Mr. Sunny King since you are aware of his other obligations, that is good. I am not being sarcastic. If he has other obligations, he should delegate some developing activities to other members in this community.

As far as anticipation goes, I was referring to attributes and benefits of PPC and XPM which the community can clearly define and communicate, not to overall market trends which are, I agree, very (but not completely) unpredictable.

I fully agree that BTC will not adopt PoS.

PPC and XPM need time to mature, but also more active effort on various levels and active communication.

11

[quote=“pvox, post:10, topic:1390”]Sahkan,

I am not talking about current market parameters, but about PPC’s and XPM’s potential which is not being built upon correctly and quickly enough. Sorry, this is my opinion and I am prepared to offer additional arguments if necessary. I would not want inferior coins to surpass PPC and XPM just because there is not enough communication with the public and innovation.

So, I guess you know Mr. Sunny King since you are aware of his other obligations, that is good. I am not being sarcastic. If he has other obligations, he should delegate some developing activities to other members in this community.

As far as anticipation goes, I was referring to attributes and benefits of PPC and XPM which the community can clearly define and communicate, not to overall market trends which are, I agree, very (but not completely) unpredictable.

I fully agree that BTC will not adopt PoS.

PPC and XPM need time to mature, but also more active effort on various levels and active communication.[/quote]
I know Sunny as much as anyone else in this forum, through PMs and his interaction on the forum. But I have pointed out a need for some of the immediate fixes to peercoin in May of last year, and since he is taking his time it is obvious he has other obligations. The cool thing about this world wide phenomena (crypto) is that it is open source and everyone can participate … even you! So feel free to organize a more active effort, we will support! This is more of a hobby for me and a learning experience so I am limited on time because of my full time job but I am sure all of us here will contribute as much as we can (and some have). I still remember when it was just Fuzzy and me on this board … (ok and maybe few others) but in last 6 moths or so we became a very active community with some neat projects and even were able to get our first funding round of some $500K for the peershare project (not to mention sponsorship of John’s trip to Miami Bitcoin Conference).
So yes, we can always use more help and effort but we are moving forward, and yes, you are right we can try to do a better job at it.

12

[quote=“pvox, post:8, topic:1390”]Thx, RobertLloyd.

I understand some development is going on, I am actually more worried about other issues, some of which I already mentioned in my previous posts.

  1. Too much “blind trust” of the community towards Mr. Sunny King. I understand he is a great developper (although no one really knows him right?), but it seems to me he is not properly coordinating all efforts required for PPC and XPM to truly grow. It is all too slow, without some sort of “management” (yeah, I understand what decentralization is :slight_smile: ) and without proper execution of other activity levels - PR, marketing, negotiations with merchants and payment processors etc. Check out some lesser coins (e.g. Earthcoin which probably has no real future) and what they are doing on various levels. Why isn’t XPM properly “marketed” and adopted as a fast, stable crypto and PPC as a way of truly reassuring investors in case of a “BTC crash”? Some basic activities should be done more frequently and thoroughly, prior to advanced and currently probably not so necessary protocol adjustments.

  2. Too much anticipation without proper results (e.g. client version 0.4). If Sunny King is such a great developper, really why is it taking so long? Why don’t we have any information about expected new features? Can we learn from competitors (I already mentioned Emunie - whatever their true agenda is) and some features they are heavily announcing and implement some of it in the PPC/XPM protocols and wallets?

  3. If you look at the PPC/BTC ratio, which is in my opinion the most important as a quasi-indicator of short and mid-term differentiation from both BTC and LTC, it is stagnating (XPM/BTC is actually getting lower). More innovations and a proper promotion would dramatically increase those ratios even in the short term.

I am not trolling, really, I would love to see some proper, more coordinated steps. I do believe in PPC in the long term, not so sure anymore about XPM because I am afraid others will complete necessary steps toward adoption more quickly.[/quote]

PeerCoin is a long long term proposition. Accordingly it has time to take a long DEV time.

The DEV team is also being built

13

@sahkan
You are right, I will try to contribute more actively, this is a hobby for me as well.

@jubalix
I understand that PPC has been devised as a long term proposition, that’s what attracted me to the whole concept in the first place. However, markets are ruthless, therefore how much time is really available for development is actually a function of:

  • true utility (for end users, investors, merchants…)
  • competitors’ positioning and activities
  • adoption rate
    Therefore, there may not be as much time for development as you think :slight_smile: Competitors could take over if dev. is not followed all the time by activities on other levels as well.
14

[quote=“pvox, post:13, topic:1390”]@sahkan
You are right, I will try to contribute more actively, this is a hobby for me as well.

@jubalix
I understand that PPC has been devised as a long term proposition, that’s what attracted me to the whole concept in the first place. However, markets are ruthless, therefore how much time is really available for development is actually a function of:

  • true utility (for end users, investors, merchants…)
  • competitors’ positioning and activities
  • adoption rate
    Therefore, there may not be as much time for development as you think :slight_smile: Competitors could take over if dev. is not followed all the time by activities on other levels as well.[/quote]

the project is open source so, anyone can fork it at any time. Also this allows people to suggest changes to peer coin code base.

If say SK stopped, some one would take over, and new git hip repo life continues.

Any coin may be over taken by a knew one at any time, thus the counter strategy of diversification.

However PeerCoin in tandem with XPM are a hard combo to compete with or replicate to compete. XPM takes care of quick transactions, perhaps for retail, and has a very different hash system, incase btw falls over. PeerCoin long term as you agree.

One thing is the longterm proposition of peer coin, takes a lot of time for people to understand, they all scream retail retail pos, amazon, ebay, etc etc, and thats not where the real money is.

Thus the fraction of people that are interested in peer coin is much less as they just don’t get it. Less percentage of The big money(value) people will not be across crypto’s but when they do they will quickly goto PeerCoin because of the proportion it presents.

So a lot of dev and crypto time goes into chasing high volume low value retail. i struggle to even think of any other coin that explicity goes the other way except of PeerCoin.

I don’t blame the masses for this they are bombarder daily by retail messages, few think or know about the larger forex, currency swap, nightly balance high, store of wealth, high value areas. PeerCoin will be the kind of thing you buy your house with.

the catch cry is the misguided coin x is faster (which just mean more confirms are needed) and bloat in the block chain. The you have the jack of all trade coins and Transaction per second.

Bitcoin is getting squeezed by nxt on one side and Peercoin on the other. I think it is join to have to fork to adopt pos, or higher transactions per second. When it does, it will be confirming Peercoin as the better model, or leaving he space wide open for high value, as it chases down nxt tps.

BTC does have a huge depth of field of devs that could probably overcome any problem. the will to do so however is another question.

15

OK…
NOW that Bitcoin is experiencing problems (ddos, mt gox, speculative problems, whatever) Peercoin should communicate clearly to the public all its advantages and convince everyone of its protocols’ safety while reinstating its purpose. All this with a new “official” wallet/client as proof of confidence and innovation. Now is the perfect timing with clear purpose for this type of communication. Now we should build confidence and differentiate from Bitcoin in any possible way!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

16

[quote=“pvox, post:15, topic:1390”]OK…
NOW that Bitcoin is experiencing problems (ddos, mt gox, speculative problems, whatever) Peercoin should communicate clearly to the public all its advantages and convince everyone of its protocols’ safety while reinstating its purpose. All this with a new “official” wallet/client as proof of confidence and innovation. Now is the perfect timing with clear purpose for this type of communication. Now we should build confidence and differentiate from Bitcoin in any possible way!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk[/quote]

Thing is, is PPC actually immune to this attack that Bitcoin is facing?

17

I don’t know! That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Top developers, including Mr. “Sunny King” should get out of their shells (sorry guys), be more proactive, clearly educate and communicate, on exchanges, other forums. And, PLEASE, release the new qt client! Make it official and don’t overdo and complicate!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

18

There is no issue with Bitcoin, Peercoin or any other coin.
The issues MtGox has a re created by themselves and are very unique to them and their company policies.
This issue have been known for years and is simply a matter of implementing proper company business rules.

There has been another thread dealing with the details. I think there also have been posts on Reddit.

Not sure if there is anything specific for Peercoin to add. Thank god, we haven’t been added to that exchange in the last few months. Hope we can get e.g. Bitstamp to add a solid crypto like Peercoin.

19

Here are some specific advices. This should be implemented ASAP (NOW):

  1. Release the new qt client. Include only minting shortcut, Peercoin logo, change PPCoin to Peercoin (whereever applicable). Do not complicate!
  2. Start posting through ALL available channels (forums, reddit, twitter…) about the changes and, more importantly, about all basic PPC’s advantages and long-term position
  3. Differentiate from BTC as much as possible in short-term communication, insist on the solid investment opportunity which PPC represents (link with store of value position), explain why PPC does not suffer from BTC’s shortcomings (regardless of the fact that BTC is not flawed either). The general public needs reassurance and simple information.

Sunny King, PPC evangelists, developers, PLEASE do it NOW. Everything happening with BTC now can be used to improve PPC’s position, please do not miss it!

Regardless of the long-term position, this is the chance to significantly improve it in the short-term as well!

20

[quote=“pvox, post:19, topic:1390”]Here are some specific advices. This should be implemented ASAP (NOW):

  1. Release the new qt client. Include only minting shortcut, Peercoin logo, change PPCoin to Peercoin (whereever applicable). Do not complicate!
  2. Start posting through ALL available channels (forums, reddit, twitter…) about the changes and, more importantly, about all basic PPC’s advantages and long-term position
  3. Differentiate from BTC as much as possible in short-term communication, insist on the solid investment opportunity which PPC represents (link with store of value position), explain why PPC does not suffer from BTC’s shortcomings (regardless of the fact that BTC is not flawed either). The general public needs reassurance and simple information.

Sunny King, PPC evangelists, developers, PLEASE do it NOW. Everything happening with BTC now can be used to improve PPC’s position, please do not miss it!

Regardless of the long-term position, this is the chance to significantly improve it in the short-term as well![/quote]
All issue 1 elements have been done in my latest builds 0.3.2 http://builds.peercointalk.org except the “Minting” button which I plan to implement when I get 5 mins off the Peershares project :stuck_out_tongue: oh and i need higher resolution graphic for he desktop icon. So its pretty much there.

Feel free to spread the word about PPC as you suggest in 2

there are a number of info graphics that highlight the differences between PPC and BTC and LTC… have a look here http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972.msg18503#msg18503

Fuzzybear